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You can see the problem with that in the image below from the chopper video. The window is closed and you see the trail of blood running down it.
Posted on 09/20/2016 9:28:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
It’s not clear what happened in the last few fateful moments but some facts are undisputed. Crutcher was unarmed, Tulsa’s police chief admitted yesterday, and had no weapon in his car. He had his hands up as he walked slowly away from the police and towards his SUV with an officer, Betty Shelby, trailing behind him. As he reached the driver-side door, Shelby and another officer stopped a few feet behind the SUV and trained their pistols on him. They were joined by two more cops. Then things took a turn: At some point in the next few moments, as Crutcher stood beside the door, the second officer tasered him and then Shelby fired one shot at him, killing him.
Why was Crutcher’s SUV in the middle of the road? The Times says Shelby responded to the scene after “after the police received reports of an abandoned vehicle blocking a road”:
In an interview, Officer Shelby’s lawyer, Scott Wood, said the officer had thought that Mr. Crutcher had a weapon. Mr. Wood said Mr. Crutcher had acted erratically, refused to comply with several orders, tried to put his hand in his pocket and reached inside his car window before he was shot.
Chief Jordan said Officer Shelby had encountered Mr. Crutcher and his vehicle while en route to another call and requested backup because she was “not having cooperation” from him. Officer Turnbough and his partner responded to Officer Shelby’s request for backup. It was the dashboard camera in their patrol car that recorded the shooting.
There are two recordings, one from a helicopter plus the dashboard cam video, both of which are featured in the clip below. Neither one is close enough, though, to give you a good idea of exactly what’s going on once Crutcher gets to the SUV, and the dashboard angle is obstructed by the group of cops gathered at the back of the vehicle. Did Crutcher reach through the window into the car — a police spokesman says he did — and did officers on the scene warn him specifically not to do that? If he’d been uncooperative to that point and “erratic,” the police may have thought he was on something (one of the cops in the chopper speculates about that during the clip) and worried that he was going for a gun. That would have been nuts with four cops ready to fire at him just feet away, but “erratic” people can do nutty things.
Even so, Crutcher makes no sudden moves in the clip. His hands, as noted, are in the air. The cops had a nonlethal means of subduing him available, the taser, and they put it to use, raising the question of why Shelby felt obliged to shoot. Did the taser not bring him down? Even if it didn’t, with no hard evidence that Crutcher was armed, was Shelby obliged to at least catch a glimpse of a weapon before deciding to kill him, just in case?
The audio of what the cops said to Crutcher and what he said back may end up being more valuable than the video at trial, assuming that that audio exists. The DOJ has already opened an investigation into the shooting. Crutcher is survived by four kids.
Mere 'failure to obey' is murder. Simply 'reaching for' is murder and so is any rationale that pretty much uses 'snap decisions' as its sole excuse.
'In fear of' needs the skepticism of 'what would a reasonable and prudent person do' - not special circumstances by someone under the color of law.
Does all this sound harsh and unreasonable. Well, maybe to some. But the truth is that the only way we have peaceful communities is by having the support of the communities.
Yes, there are murderous BLM members and terrorists, but that does not justify the citizenry being nothing more than collateral damage to the 'new normal' of law enforcement. Ask yourself what your perspective would be if your teenage son was shot reaching for his ID.
Could the taser hit have caused a jerking movement that was mis-interpreted?
Could be. We’ll just have to wait and see what the investigation finds.
A few years ago when it was apparently general policy for cops to use whatever dogs they saw for target practice there were also a number of egregious killings of citizens. Police departments seem to have got a handle on that and since, the claimed police murders have not been happening. Until the last weeks. Is the fad coming back?
A few years ago when it was apparently general policy for cops to use whatever dogs they saw for target practice there were also a number of egregious killings of citizens. Police departments seem to have got a handle on that and since, the claimed police murders have not been happening. Until the last weeks. Is the fad coming back?
My daughter was driving with me on the interstate in Tampa 15 years or so ago. We pulled off the big road onto a feeder road and the cop that had been behind us for a couple of miles followed us down. The cop suddenly sped up alongside and the driver turned toward us causing daughter to turn into a street that intersected right there. The street was one way the wrong way. The blue light came on and I figured we had a brake light out or comething. The officers were a tiny woman and a vry large man. The woman appeared to be in charge. She sprang from the car and approached daughters window. D had her paper work all out. We were ordered out of the car and told to put our hands on the roof which we die. The woman then berated D for going the wrong way on a one way street. D protested that the cops had forced her over. The woman’s voice got shrill and she put her hand on her gun and started yelling about resisting arrest. D shut up and got the ticket. The large male cop never said a word or even moved. He just stood there. I have since learned that if one is transiting Tampa with an out of county tag it is unwise to leave the interstate. I used to think female cops were silly but kind of cute. Now they just look to be potentially rabid.
Fascinating—and yes, makes sense. Thanks!
“He was moving very slowly. Maybe he was under the influence of something or having a medical issue.”
Might have though if he moved slowly they wouldn’t take it as a threat. But quite possibly drug-related, too.
I still want to hear the cops’ sides of it and get a true timeline.
Sadly, I'm forced to agree.
I think what Kipling had to say about it is pretty close to the mark.
Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
The Female of the Species
When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
But when hunter meets with husbands, each confirms the other's tale—
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.
Man, a bear in most relations—worm and savage otherwise,—
Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.
Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
Mirth obscene diverts his anger—Doubt and Pity oft perplex
Him in dealing with an issue—to the scandal of The Sex!
But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.
She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity—must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions—not in these her honour dwells—
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.
She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.
She is wedded to convictions—in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!—
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.
Unprovoked and awful charges—even so the she-bear fights,
Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons—even so the cobra bites,
Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
And the victim writhes in anguish—like the Jesuit with the squaw!
So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.
And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
Must command but may not govern—shall enthral but not enslave him.
And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.
Under the conditions shown, her finger should have never been inside the trigger guard.
Agree. If he was thinking clearly, he would have driven, coasted, pushed the car to the side of the road. on a two lane road
If he was thinking at all, he would not have been reaching inside his window.Blood test required.
Actually, he could be my twin except that he was about two inches shorter.
His picture (actually drawn by one of those people who do such things for the cops) was all over the local newspapers. And he really did look just like me, but again just a little shorter.
Talk about a pucker moment...
Maybe I'm missing a factoid but I would have shot him if he walked back to his car, probably against orders, and looked like he was going to reach in the window and grab something - especially if he was acting like a bath salt freak. I'm not seeing the problem here ... again ... especially if a taser didn't drop him.
I cannot tell the window is closed from that image. I can’t say for certain it is OPEN, but I also cannot say for certain it is closed.
I also think this incident may point to a problem, um, with let’s say “weaker” cops trying to apprehend larger individuals.
In Broward county Florida a few years ago, there was a nice old man who had been a cop for years. His duty was to transport prisoners. He was a kindly fellow, and eventually one of the jailbirds figured out how to take his gun. The officer was killed. In that case, the inmate ended up killing a weaker officer.
In this case (again, IF we can believe the reporting...) then the physically weaker cop shot the subject being addressed.
I also heard they found some angel dust/PCP in the vehicle.
I dunno. I am kind of the opinion that these cases, though rare, receive the LIONS SHARE of media hype and attention.
Meanwhile, in Chicago over the last two years the number of people shot is approaching 6,000:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-shootings-20160815-story.html
and the media doesn’t give a damn.
“Initiating “non-lethal” force in the presence of hair-trigger lethal force (chambered, sights on target, finger on trigger) may prompt the latter.”
I was thinking along those lines too. “Hair-trigger” tense situation, she may not have intended to pull he trigger. If indeed her’s was the only shot fired, seems like such may be the case.
“I cannot tell the window is closed from that image. I can’t say for certain it is OPEN, but I also cannot say for certain it is closed.”
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I’d say it’s pretty clear - how could blood run down an open window? You can watch the video for yourself and pause it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkOOyNHVToU
I suspect this is either a case where the female officer overreacted or accidentally put too much pressure on the trigger. You can see that all the officers had their waepons drawn and trained on the guy, maybe a situation like that gets some officer’s adrenalin level higher.
She was demanding The Sex?
Yep, but new video - seems like he is reaching for the handle. Also to note, police where called because he parked the car in the middle of the road and told a witness it was going to explode.
So gee, police probably figured it could be a bomb and he was reaching for the detonator.
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