Posted on 10/25/2001 12:41:04 PM PDT by rface
I make an effort to, but alas, I often fall far short of that perfect ideal.
(Perhaps after I leave here...)
But they apparently have a plethora of stupid Moos, and need a corral for them.
Sects, sects, sects. Is that all the supporters of this principal can think about? :)
Seriously, as I said above when MOTEXVA brought this argument up, many Christians do not belong to a sect. Do you think they have to join a sect to be listened to by the principal?
I'm glad to hear that if Muslims have protected prayer time, Buddhists would get protected prayer time too. Christians and Jews will like having their special times too.
Nice thought.
But, you'll notice I was answering your statement that "..no one can stop a child from praying in school," by telling you that they CAN stop a child, if they want (maybe they need to use some feeble "excuse" like "disturbing the class," "obstructing student flow in the hallways," "too loud in the lunchroom," etc---Not every mid-level school official is as honest as you are, so they might not admit their true motive.) I think the non-Muslims should have their prayer rooms, too, so none of this game-playing by mid-level officials can interfere with anyone's prayer.
Good point. If Muslims get Non-spontaneous prayer, then, Christians should be allowed non-spontaneous prayer, too.
Nice thought
But you don't live here, so you don't know the district.
"...would be abused instantly"..Hmm. Not a very high opinion of devout Christians. But Christians can be as devout in expressing their faith as Muslims can. These devout Muslims are being supported in their beliefs. Devout Christians should be, too. Give them a prayer room during school hours, too.
Really? I would think the particular belief of the students, is unimportant in a discussion of the legality of religious prayer in public schools.
I wonder if all Muslims pray when they are supposed to? After all they're human, too, and (perhaps) prone to sins of omission. On the other hand, it might be hard for a Muslim to NOT pray since every Muslim around would know he wasn't praying when he should be praying. ( I sure hope the Muslim students who DON'T want to pray during school aren't pressured unduly by other Muslim students ).
Another question, I wonder if Muslims are forbidden to pray between the times they are told to pray. Or are there moments of free choice in prayer for them? Maybe they will want to use the prayer room a little more often than at the required times. What will happen then? I wonder if the principal will let them use it.
In Islam, one of the pillars is that at certain times of day, your stop whatever you are doing, kneel in the direction of Mecca, and pray to Allah.
The court is respecting this because it is one of the foundations of the religion. If it one of the ten commandmants was to pray out loud, in the morning and at night, and the majority of Christian denominations held to this, then likely some sort of accomodation would be made for Christian students, like a prayer room, or they would be allowed to meet outside, or whatever.
But, and I'm sure you will agree with me on this, Christianty is a more advanced faith than Islam. Our God is everywhere, we don't have to kneel towards some rock on the other side of the planet to honor and praise Him. We can pray out loud, silently, together, alone, morning, night, whatever, and know He will hear us.
Moslems don't have that luxury, I guess because their God doesn't hear them unless they kneel towards His rock.
I am not condemning or endorsing their religion for this, it's just a fact.
You might have a case for discrimination if this was the case, but Christians don't in this case. It appears that the Moslems are given preferential treatment, but I am unaware of any Christian sect that demands such things from their adherents.
Think about this for a moment: In communities that are predominently Roman Catholic, fish is served in the cafeteria during Lent.
In the sex education classes that are offered without fail in the schools, parents who for religious (or other) reasons are able to take their kids out of those classes.
Jews have a variety of holy days and Jewish students are excused on those days without sanction.
There are a variety of ways that different religions are accomadated, but Christians don't get prayer rooms because it's not a tenet of their faith to have prayer rooms, except unless you want to consider a church a prayer room, and that's not an issue because you don't have school on a Sunday.
Can we not reason together?
The original Church recognizing Christ as the Son of God, is the Catholic Church. Any other version of Christianity, any other Church, by the definition of the word, is a sect.
This is not a negative thing, use whatever word it is that you feel comfortable with when detailing the differences between Catholics, Baptists, Seventh Day Advent Christians...you get the idea.
"they CAN stop a child, if they want (maybe they need to use some feeble "excuse" like "disturbing the class," "obstructing student flow in the hallways," "too loud in the lunchroom,"
I guess my definition of prayer and yours are different, I pray silently, so I could never be charged with disrupting anything. If your child is stopped from silently praying in the lunch room, get an attorney and sue the ever living sh*t out of the School District, the County, the State, and the individuals involved in stopping him, you won't believe how fast School administrators find Jesus when faced with Legal actions leveled at them.
Jesus would approve
""...would be abused instantly"..Hmm. Not a very high opinion of devout Christians."
Wasn't speaking about devout Christians.
Really?
Yes really, this story wouldn't merit a blip of coverage if we weren't at war with people of the Islamic faith.
BTW, I am in no way "defending" this principal. I don't really believes that he needs any defense.
I disagree. Sorry I only have time to give one example, now. There were headlines about prayers at football games.
Good. I was hoping you were tolerant of OTHERS views of what prayer is. Some people view prayer one way, some view it another. Some like litanies, some like song, some like to sit silently until one among them is inspired to stand up and say something.
Golly. It sure would be nice if the people who want to gather together to pray (and then Christ 'will be among them') would get to pray out loud when they gather together.
. . .But to make space available to accommodate kids, that is something ... we want to do."
. . .and this means?
How much more of the pathetic and outrageous and rediculously typical Liberal-impaired rationale must we choke on. . .they always sound like they have been blindfoled; then turned three times before they answer. . .
. . .all good citizens must come to the aid of our country; we must STOP PC. . .
For the 3rd time. . .What about people who don't belong to a Church? You and Motexva keep talking about Sects, sects, sects whenever I ask you about individuals who do NOT belong to a church, but who want to follow their OWN consciences about their faith.
Not every religious person belongs to a church in the US. Now, it IS true that some other countries encourage their people to declare a church affilitation, but the US is different. (Except for the overly nosy inquiry about a student's religion on the application for the PSAT)
You are talking about groups of people organizing themselves and announcing the fact that they would defy a Court order and pray at a school game.
Notice that since the school itself had no hand in the activity, nothing came of it.
Not during school hours, not under the supervision or sponsorship of a government entity. The Founders saw to that.
Religion is a private thing, if people of like mind gather together and wish to pray, that is fine, as long as their gathering and their praying do not infringe on my activities at the time.
For example, if you and I share an office along with many others, a group of Christians gathering together to pray out loud is unacceptable, on many, many levels.
BTW, why is it necessary for you to pray "out loud"? God hears what the heart says, not what the mouth utters.
It talks about when a certain number of people gather in His name, He will be there.
A Church isn't a building, or an affiliation, but rather a dogma and a set of principles.
You keep assuming that when I say "Church" I am talking about a building.
I'm far from the intolerant one on this thread.
There sure is, My son is a sophmore here in NorCalif and is currenty a Staff Sgt in the AFJROTC program here. It is a wonderful program and I am happy to report that since 9/11, the kids at the school have started to see these ROTC kids in a whole new light. Previously, they sometime had to put up with grief from the Jocks and the Stoners but even those groups have a newfound respect for the ROTC kids.
knews hound
The sad fact is the court is less likely to respect their wishes, unless they are part of a codified faith with a history, a fairly large group of followers, and some sort of written body of laws or other apocrypha that worshippers refer to. Again - I'm not defending this, I'm just stating the facts.
All students here are excused from class participation on their religious holy days. Teachers are forbidden to introduce new material and may not give tests on those days to kids who are in class.
I like this evenhanded approach. Sounds reasonable. The only thing is, problems come up when we start trying to apply all these new rules and procedures about religion to the variety of human beings we have in our public schools.
Funniest thing... a local Jewish public school teacher insisted that his students do work on a Jewish holiday that the teacher did not think was taken seriously enough by the Jewish students who were in school. He thought that the fact that they weren't attending religious services at their temple showed that the Jewish kids in his class weren't serious enough about their religion to merit having the day free from classwork.
All of a sudden we have the human element to contend with. Who judges which student is seriously interested in his religion? Sticky quagmire.
Yes. I've heard similar ideas about conscientious objectors being taken more seriously if they could show a history of a connection with an organized religion that opposes war.
I wonder if a child would be allowed to point to a belief in the Bible, the written body of laws she believes is correct. Might that be enough to get her to be allowed to pray in a special room at school, even if it doesn't confer CO status on her?
Sure, as long as you noticed what I said---- that an issue that related school and prayer, and that had NOTHING to do with Muslims, made headlines.
Remember, my answer was in reply to your previous statement that (quote)" ... this story wouldn't merit a blip of coverage if we weren't at war with people of the Islamic faith."
Your statement was wrong in two ways:
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