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To: jamaksin
Why can't you? At least you now admit to damning honorable navy cryptologists like Joe Rochefort, Captain Whitlock, Forrest Biard and a hundred or so more of my contemporaries as liers and conspirators that unnecessarily caused the death of their shipmates! It is strange that conspirator theorist always wait until most of the actors are dead before raising their slanderous allegations.

The loose ends are your conspiratorial allegations. Nothing proven just alleged.

What little information I can find on Barkin is that he claims there were JN-25B decrypts which have proven false from OP-20-GYP-1 documents and the testimony of those involved. The Japanese did not put their Pearl Harbor operational orders in radio messages, so how could JN-25B decrypts with only one group out of 100 being read on average determine that such an attack was iminent? Nothing new here.

Fishel is harder to find but from what I read he and Tordello refuted Barkin. See http://muskingum.edu/intellsite/wwiipearl_folder/wwiipearla-c.html

Again, Winds Execute is a dead horse. The Japanese themselves substantiate they never sent such a message and there was no need to do so as the international communications links were still open.

The Kimmell/Short arena is somewhat different. Even Kimmell didn't allege an FDR conspiracy--just that Washington had information that wasn't passed to him. The latest Congressional review found no reason to raise their ranks and put the major blame on Kimmel/Short. I agree that much better and more war warnings could have and should have been sent but for the negligence of Marshall and Turner, but they were bumblers trying to be their own intelligence officers not conspirators.

Again, if the British didn't have any JN-25B decrypts what could be in those BJ's? As to Japan, the British only had Japanese diplomatic decrypts. So only Japanese diplomatic decrypts not JN-25B in Churchill's BJ's.

So some old Coast Guard records are missing. The San Bruno custodian refutes much of Stinnett's allegations. The U.S. Navy had many intercepts of Japanese commercial ships transmitting in the same commercial bands that the Lurline and Grogan used. FYI, Japanese naval ships did not transmit in those commercial shipping bands. The Japanese confirmed that no message was ever sent by the Kido Butai as is seen by Station H intercepts and logs. Scratch Grogan and his Lurline "logs.

I am still waiting for documentation that King muzzled Navy cryptologists. I personally saw an OP-20-G message saying that anyone called before a Congressional hearing was to fully answer any question posed regardless of classification. Am I lying too?

Apparently, the so-called "White House" file is another "missing" document. What specifically is in it? Since we had no JN-25B decrypts there weren't any of those in it.

TESTM was a simple prewar HFDF codebook. HFDF codes were commonly used by appropriate navy cryptologists like myself. It was not a new system to me. The problem is that Stinnett mislead his readers into believing that it showed Kido Butai messages being sent and HFDF bearings on such messages when the second section only listed call sign recoveries from headings in messages sent on the Tokyo broadcast, not from ship transmissions. Shame on him.

GUPID was the third lowest level of the crypto systems used for naval COMINT after COPEK and one other. It was mostly used for confidential information not Top Secret like COPEK or Secret information. No hot stuff there.

Villa is Stinnett rit small. He has no proof either just fantacizes as to what might have been. He keeps finding new "possibilities" after his old ones have been shot down. Poor Wilford, I would hate to be Villa's grad student. We all felt very sorry for Wilford and his terrible predicament.

PA-K2 "bomb plot" messages are clear when you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. You should consider that there were relatively few people in Washington decrypting and translating those Japanese diplomatic messages from all over the world. The Army couldn't handle it all so they asked the Navy to help out on odd days of the month. There were no analysts per se reviewing all these decrypts and translations and very little coordination between the Army and Navy--each mainly having only half of the picture unless something big caught someone's attention. I suppose there was a similar conspiracy when the North Korean's invaded South Korea in a surprise move not detected by intelligence with a huge organization and all the WWII experience. I think you should give some credit to our enemy's ability to maintain secrecy and make such surprise attacks.

95 posted on 11/07/2001 6:43:33 PM PST by pjhoward
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To: pjhoward
If GUPID is "not hot stuff" - why does it remain classified?

The point of my comment re: TESTM is that Stinnett is the first to publicly reproduce it. Have others?

As you know, most of the "flak" toward Stinnett was triggered on the release of his hardcover edition. A paperback was later released - with a Afterword section. In that Afterword is an interesting document - also publicly seen for the first time - call signs, radio frequencies, To/Frm, bearings, ... ALBEIT FOR AUGUUST 1941. But again - first time seen.

On Barkin/Fishel ... I'll say again - I gave both references ... a pro and a con on radio silence. Is that being objective or what? Admiral Genda comments are in the NYT - written right after Toland's book appeared.

The avenue of who broke which code when will persist ... Again a delay game! The PA-K2 "Bomb Plots" ... divide the East Loch into a grid, ... light signals ... All agree this avenue is extant. The why's/whenfore's of not telling Kimmel/Short fall on deaf "anti-revisionists" ears ...

And other "loose-ends" will also persist - I've pointed out the vanished "White House File" - what about Sec. Knox question to Kimmel " ... didn't you get the message we sent ..." Where is that message? Was it ever sent? But then the SS Lurline radio logs, ... etc. remain incoveniently missing ... Did Marsall lie under oath???

This must be the third/fourth generation of this debate - but then the Church (after 400 year) admitted the trial on a helio-centric universe was a sham. So for Pearl Harbor, is there still hope?

Loyalty to a person, a service, a company, a team, an idea, a political party, ... in many instances can become a "bad" thing. It gets to an attitudes such, for example, as my service "right or wrong" ... For Pearl Harbor a clear level of loyalty is and has seen for decades in place. Think of the West Point "Duty, Honor, Country" creed ... note country is last. Clausen remarks about the "higher oath" not to reveal anything about MAGIC [See page 270 - Pearl Harbor: Final Judg(e)ment, Da Capo Press edition]. In that vane, think about the oath taken to protect, defend the United States Constitution.

Very likely "deals with the devil" - FDR and his War Cabinet, Marshall and his staff, Stark and who knows, ... were made ... that's the mess. Rochefort's comment about a "cheap price" may have implied entry into WWII was a must and if Pearl Harbor was the sacrifice ... so be it. My earlier comment on Rochefort was a wonderment of his thoughts given post-WWII how the "world view" changed.

So, for me at least, and apparently others ... drip, drip...

It is one thing to put people in harm's way, it is another to deceive them.

Other comments given "off-line."

96 posted on 11/08/2001 1:48:32 AM PST by jamaksin
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