TWA FLIGHT 800

3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

[sandydipper]

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.

[Asmodeus]

The "Shrapnel" Myth:
John Barry Smith - LSoft Flight 800 Forum - 1 September 1997
"Shrapnel defined in ole' dictionary: 'A hollow projectile containing bullets or the like and a bursting charge, designed to explode berfore reaching the target, and to release a shower of missiles.' Ok, so 'FBI agents were here and standing with us while we were doing the autopsies and taking the shrapnel that we found', said Dr. Charles Wetli of the Suffolk County Medical Examiner. 'Virtually all of the bodies had shrapnel'. FBI agents wanting shrapnel so bad they can taste it, local doctor who has probably never seen real war wounds with real shrapnel sees bodies with pieces of metal embedded in them and says, 'shrapnel.' And reported by reporter. And you go conclusive. You are spring loaded to the missile/bomb explanation."

The "All The Witnesses Were Accused of Being Drunk Drunk" Myth:
It's routine for expert major incident interviewers to ask witnesses if they had any alcoholic beverages to drink and/or had taken any kind of drugs within 12-24 hours prior to making their observations and to determine all the details in the event of an affirmative answer.
"George Black: I'd almost make an observation that one of the things by virtue of my position I got to interview witnesses pretty quickly. In this case, even the FBI was reviewing, interviewing these witnesses, hours, even days, afterwards, and one of the things that we do not know about these witnesses, was what their condition was at the time they made these observations. I noticed that you refer to someone at Yacht Club on an evening during the summer. I suspect I know what some of their conditions might have been but that is a bit of information we do not have since they were delayed interviews". Source

"You write as though you may have taken part in the cover-up. Did you."

An accusation disguised as a question, a typical tinfoiler tactic that dramatizes their circular logic: They decree that TWA 800 was the victim of a "missile(s) shootdown", that high ranking government officials and thousands of other Americans have engaged in the criminal coverup of that decreed "truth" about the disaster and that those who disagree with them are therefore guilty of complicity in the felonious criminal coverup of "the missile(s) shootdown" of TWA 800.

"Having followed the link to the official report of witness 649, I found it contained a letter from a real expert witness analyst from the Suffolk County Police Department (Douglas S. Matulewich, Deputy Inspector, Commanding Officer, Marine Bureau) who was employed to determine if TWA 800 witness accounts indicate that a missile was involved. Inspector Matulewich along with an agent from the Defense Intelligence Agency triangulated several witness accounts and concluded this:"

[Underlined emphasis added][Caps in the original]
Witness Expert: "I became involved in a joint effort to determine the possibility of a missile shooting down TWA flight 800. The objective was to determine if the observations of eye witnesses could be plotted on a chart to determine a location from which a missile was shot. ... The above Latitude and Longitude locations INDICATES THE CENTER OF AN AREA THAT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED TO BE SEARCHED AND AT A MINIMUM A ONE (1) nautical mile area should be searched for the remains of equipment that would launch a portable missile. The possibility exists that the equipment was discarded and now remains on the ocean floor."

It is again appropriate to remind the readers what an "expert" is:

ex·pert (kspûrt) n. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

The tinfoiler alleges that Matulewich is a "Witness Expert". An expert witness interviewer conducts thorough and complete witness interviewers. Did Matulewich ever conduct any such witness interviews of any incident? Can the tinfoiler produce even one expert witness interview conducted by Matulewich?

No one can become an expert witness report analyst without knowing how to conduct an expert witness interview.

Did the tinfoiler notice that Matulewich "became involved in a joint effort" to see if they could find a possible missile launch point so that they could then look for "the remains of equipment that would launch a portable missile"?

Which is what James Kallstrom instructed his FBI agents to do at the outset.

"James Kallstrom’s erroneous assumption on the basis of intial reports that Flight 800 may have been the victim of a missile shootdown led to the FBI being authorized to seize control of the investigation from the NTSB at the outset. He promptly elbowed aside the NTSB Witness Interview Teams, as documented in NTSB Exhibit 4-A, and substituted his own agents to interview the witnesses, ignoring the fact that the NTSB Teams were far better qualified for that role. Making matters worse, as the complaints from so many of the witnesses reflect about extremely brief and sketchy interviews, it appears he gave them orders to move fast to find the "smoking gun" of a missile shootdown that he was apparently convinced would be readily found." Source

But Kallstrom publicly admitted later that no meaningful evidence of a missile shootdown of the 747 [or bomb] was ever found. Which, because of their circular logic, led the tinfoils to acccuse the FBI of a criminal coverup of "the truth". Which in turn required the tinfoil hatters to ignore the testimony and reports of government experts on other subjects such as explosives and forensic metallurgy documented in this source and its clickable link. Which the tinfoilers will inevitably allege was "more lies to coverup the truth".

Just as they will inevitably allege that this response to their fantasies is circular logic because most of them haven't the foggiest idea how to engage in logical deductive reasoning. As John Barry Smith put it, they are "spring loaded to the missile explanation".

To put it another way, the tinfoil hatters are reality impaired because their horrendous bias has destroyed their objectivity.

[DB]

It would have to have a large plume if they are going to go 14,000 feet up... That is suppose to be out of range for a stinger. Also, stingers are heat seekers. The stinger would go for an engine not the center of the plane.

At a 2000 miles an hour it would take 5 seconds to fly up and hit the plane. Count off 5 seconds, it is quite awhile.

[coloradan]

It would have to have a large plume if they are going to go 14,000 feet up... That is suppose to be out of range for a stinger.

It's out of range for a stinger attacking a fast, agile fighter - NOT out of range for one attacking a slow, lumbering, straight-line path 747.

Also, stingers are heat seekers. The stinger would go for an engine not the center of the plane.

Apparently there are also A/C heat exchangers on the belly of 747s, making them quite warm. However, I do not believe that the attack was necessarily a stinger - it could have been any type of missile, including radar guided that would have gone for the conrner-cube like metal making up the wing root.

At a 2000 miles an hour it would take 5 seconds to fly up and hit the plane. Count off 5 seconds, it is quite awhile.

The stinger burn is said to be 6 seconds, and this time is comparable to what some of the witnesses reported.

[coloradan]

Ok, so 'FBI agents were here and standing with us while we were doing the autopsies and taking the shrapnel that we found', said Dr. Charles Wetli of the Suffolk County Medical Examiner. 'Virtually all of the bodies had shrapnel'. FBI agents wanting shrapnel so bad they can taste it, local doctor who has probably never seen real war wounds with real shrapnel sees bodies with pieces of metal embedded in them and says, 'shrapnel.' And reported by reporter. And you go conclusive.

Yet another pathetic straw man argument in a long, long line of pathetic straw man arguments.

It does not matter that the doctor may have not seen "real shrapnel" from "real war wounds." These people had metal pieces in them - where did they come from? When other planes go down, the victims are not filled with metal fragments - at least, it has never been reported, and there have now been several major air crashes since TWA 800. If "virtually all" of the other crash victims don't have shrapnel like those of TWA 800 did, then the burden is on you (or the NTSB, FBI, etc) to explain why the TWA 800 victims, uniquely, did.

[Asmodeus]

"The stinger burn is said to be 6 seconds, and this time is comparable to what some of the witnesses reported."

1. Identify which witnesses you're supposedly referring to.

2. Provide the readers with quotes from their reports supporting your allegation.

3. Provide the readers with the reference source URLs for those witness reports.

[coloradan]

What if I do? Will you finally concede the argument and go home?

[coloradan]

FBI agents wanting shrapnel so bad they can taste it, local doctor who has probably never seen real war wounds

Prove that the FBI agents wanted shrapnel. Give the URLs containing referenced, authenticated quotes that back up this assertion. Since it is about the personal motivations of FBI agents, only directly quoted testimony from at least two (2) agents who worked with the medical examiner is satisfactory. You must also furnish proof that these agents were in fact the ones who worked on the TWA 800 case. Again proof will be necessary, but indirect proof is satisfactory in this particular case.

Futhermore, prove to me that the doctor has never seen real war wounds: Prove that Dr. Wetli never served in any armed force, nor travelled to any war-torn region, nor worked at any hospital where battle casualties or injuries were treated. You will also have to furnish proof that no part of his medical instruction contained any information on military wounds, treatment, shrapnel, or other information pertaining to battle wounds. Prove he never knew about "real shrapnel" and also prove that your definition of "real shrapnel" applies also to a missile shootdown of a passenger airliner. Again, URLs, exact quotes, and sourced, authenticated documents are required.

(Gee, this is fun!)

[DB]

Does a stinger do 2,000 miles an hour?

I would be very surprised it goes anywhere near that speed.

Most anti-aircraft weapons uses shrapnel typically ball bearings to actually take the plane out with I believe. That leaves very distinctive evidence of what happened.

My primary point is if it was an AA missile, it is very unlikely to be a stinger. It would have been something bigger and more sophisticated IMO.

[coloradan]

As I said I have no particular beliefs about the involvement of stingers, specifically. That said, I believe it is more likely that a stinger was involved than that the tank spontaneously blew itself up, and also created the illusions to mislead the witnesses, and caused the red residue, the radar tracks, blew the nose gear doors inwards, the debris field pattern, the non-burned passengers above the fuel tank - and the peculiar and non-standard behavior of the FBI, NTSB, and the involvement of the CIA at all, and the secret evidence room for the FBI. Oh - and the shrapnel, too.

[DB]

One does wonder if a shoe bomb directly above the center fuel tank would result in what happened to flight 800.

Large quantities of fuel pouring out on fire could leave a massive fire streak in the air.

Just wondering...

[Asmodeus]

"Gee, this is fun!"

It hasn't likely been "fun" for the Flight 800 Families to be tormented by the non-stop drumbeat of wildly reckless and widely differing "missile(s) shootdown" allegations by the tinfoil hatters for nearly 5 1/2 years now that clearly imply the lawyers they've retained to protect their interests, some of the best lawyers in such matters to be found anywhere in the world, have been lying to them.

It hasn't likely been "fun" for the thousands of government employees, including members of the Armed Forces, or the thousands of other Americans who have been subjected to the non-stop drumbeat of wildly reckless accusations of complicity in heinous crimes for nearly 5 1/2 years now by the tinfoils.

It hasn't likely been "fun" for the millions of Americans confronted since 11 September 2001 by an enemy who has already killed thousands of their fellow Americans and is clearly intent on inciting worldwide suspicion, fear and hatred of the United States government and its Armed Forces, to also be subjected to the wildly reckless efforts of the TWA 800 "missile(s) shootdown" tinfoil hatters to incite suspicion, fear and hatred of the United States government and some members of its Armed Forces, many of whom are now virtually certain to be in harms way.

The American people and their government mean what is written at the bottom of the following and it doesn't seem likely they're going to tolerate much more of the tinfoils' outrageous conduct, at least for the duration of this war for the survival of us all.

[coloradan]

With respect to the plane damage, maybe, but there is still the question of the radar evidence and the fact that witnesses saw something ascending before the explosion. It would take a lot more than 10-15 seconds for the fuel to leak down all the way to the surface, and then be ignited at the surface, and have the flame race up to the sky. (Furthermore, the streak was described as being a different color than the petroleum fireball that happened later.) And then, you have the nose gear doors that were blown inwards, etc.

I'd say that what the shoe-bomber was trying to do would be Pan Am #103 that blew up over Lockerbie, Scotland. That was a cassette recorder filled with Semtex, I think, and the plane disintegrated mid-air. However, I don't believe that it actually produced a mid-air fireball as TWA 800 did.

[muggs]

bump

[acehai]

Does a stinger do 2,000 miles an hour?

Here y'go...All you never wanted to know about Stingers. When looking at the speed, bear in mind that these specs are the unclassified ones. You can take the 1672 mph at face value if you wish, but 2,000 doesn't seem to be too far out of the ballpark.

Specifications

Missile Type: 2 stage, low altitude
Length: (missile) 1.52 m
Diameter: (missile) 0.070 m
Wing span: 0.091 m
Weight: (missile (at launch)) 10.1 kg
(launcher (plus missile)) 13.3 kg
(launcher (complete)) 15.7 kg
(battery coolant unit) 0.4 kg
(beltpack IFF system (including connecting lead)) 2.6 kg
(grip-stock) 2 kg
Propulsion: solid fuel ejector and dual-thrust
boost/sustainer rocket motors
Guidance: FIM-92A passive IR homing; FIM-92B/C passive
IR/UV homing
Warhead: 1 kg HE blast smooth-case fragmentation with time-delay contact fuze
Max speed: M2.2 (Mach/Speed of Sound @ Sea Level = 760 mph.)
Max range: 8,000 m
Max effective range:
(FIM-92A) greater than 4,000 m
(FIM-92B/C) 4,800 m
Min effective range: 200 m
Max altitude:
(FIM-92A) 3,500 m
(FIM-92B/C) 3,800 m
Min altitude: effectively ground level
Launcher: man-portable single-round disposable with reusable grip-stock

[coloradan]

Oooh oooh ooh - now you're getting all sanctimonious and indignant. What is "fun" is holding you to the same standards of evidence that you would hold me to. Of course, you also sanctimoniously imply that I find the crash of TWA 800 itself fun, which is offensive and disgusting.

Which FBI agents were overseeing Dr. Wetli's medical examination?

Provide URLs quoting these agents stating that they wanted shrapnel, and badly.

Prove that Dr. Wetli had no military shrapnel experience, training, exposure, or knowledge.

Who says that finding such shrapnel is a common occurance in plane crashes and therefore not extrordinary in the case of TWA 800.

Give exact quotes from these people.

Provide URLs for these quotes.

If you fail to do these things you are evading the issue because it is equivalent to your demands made to me above.

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous (sngkt-mn-s) adj : excessively or hypocritically pious; "a sickening sanctimonious smile" [syn: holier-than-thou, pietistic, pietistical, pharisaical, self-righteous]

[DB]

I believe (could be wrong) that the cassette recorder was in the cargo hold. Which is likely away from the center fuel tank.

I agree that fuel causing the fire streak seems unlikely. Just thinking of the possibilities...

From the other posters information on stingers, it looks like the maximum altitude is around 12,500 feet. Which is close… I don't clearly remember the altitude of flight 800 was but seems like it was around 14,000 feet.

[DB]

Thank you for the information. Very informative.

[coloradan]

FL 800 was at 13,800 when it started having troubles.

My understanding is that the useful ceiling of the stinger was assuming an agile, fighter-type target. For a lumbering jetliner, it would be quite higher. A rifle bullet will go up 10,000 feet starting from supersonic at the ground; a stinger that is still supersonic at 10,000 feet can surely coast beyond 3,800 feet higher than this. (That said, I don't insist it was a stinger, only that a one is not affirmatively ruled out.)

[VectoRama]

The tinfoiler alleges that Matulewich is a "Witness Expert". An expert witness interviewer conducts thorough and complete witness interviewers. Did Matulewich ever conduct any such witness interviews of any incident? Can the tinfoiler produce even one expert witness interview conducted by Matulewich?

Asmodeus, that's worse than pathetic. Deputy Inspector Matulewich was a professional witness analyst who re-interviewed about a dozen or so key TWA 800 witnesses on location along with a DIA agent. From those witnesses he acquired the necessary data to plot the source of the "flare" that they saw.

Since it is established that Deputy Inspector Matulewich was in fact a professional witness analyst, it is up to you to prove he was not a competent professional. Simply declaring that a professional witness analyst is not an expert is just blowing hot air. It's your tin-foil hat that makes you think your hot air has substance. What's so pathetic is here you are declaring that you can know the truth about what witnesses saw from witness reports that you also declare are invalid. This is another classic crank delusion, that only you can know the truth. On the other hand Deputy Inspector Matulewich actually spoke to witnesses on location, yet of course only you can determine the truth... the master crank witness analyst Asmodeus.

[VectoRama]

The "Shrapnel" Myth:...

Asmodeus is such a hack I might be inclined to believe he's really a missile theorist trying to make the opposition look stupid. Everything he's said that I've looked into falls apart. Just do a websearch on anything he talks about to get a better picture.

FIRO, a TWA 800 group headed by a professional physicist, filed a lawsuit over "The Shrapnel Myth," asking that the FBI release its findings on foreign bodies found embedded inside TWA 800 casualties. The FBI has refused to release the information to anyone, including families. If the shrapnel is a "myth," then what the hell is the FBI refusing to release? How can the FBI refuse to release a myth? Hasn't Asmodeus done any research on this subject he posses as an self-declared "expert" on?

Read about the foreign bodies cover-up here:

FIRO Complaint Against FBI