Why is Harry Potter Evil But Lord of the Rings Heroic?

self | massadvj

[Quix]

Christians have sadly been acting very unlike they are supposed to--to each other and too often to a hurting world for centuries.

However, I'd encourage you to be cautious about who you lumped into the label "Christian."

EXTRINSIC so-called Christians tend to behave much as you describe. INTRINSIC Christians behave the least so of any reference group studied. Atheists/indiscrimminantly anti-religious indidividuals have consistently shown themselves to be the MOST prone to behave as you described in terms of hypocrisy, hostility, anger, rigidity, narrowness, punitiveness, racism etc.

[Quix]

Really -- my take is that certain people (who post here)think HP teaches magic

GIVEN THE DOCUMENTED RESPONSES OF A HUGE CHUNK OF THE RELEVENT YOUTH POPULATION, IT IS *CLEAR* HP *DOES* TEACH WITCHCRAFT--AT THE VERY LEAST--TEACHES, ENGENDERS A DESIRE TO LEARN WITCHCRAFT AND TO GAIN JUST SUCH POWERS. Why is this so hard to understand? The connection is simple, logical, repeatedly demonstrated, documented. Why is it so hard to accept? Bias?

[sharktrager]

Don't hate me, but it seems to me that the "stereotypical" readre of LOTR (at least in the last 20 years) and the "stereotypical" heavy computer user have enough overlap to explain the adoration of LOTR on the net. Remember, the majority of the pro-LOTR posts were made before any of the posters had seen the movie. That tells me it has a lot more to do with sentimentality than the relative merits of the film

[k2blader]

Bump for later read & comment(s).

[sharktrager]

readre=reader... cold in this office

[Quix]

The whole issue of Harry Potter being bad is simply ridiculous. Im sure these same folks would also say that BedKnobs and Broomsticks, Escape to Witch Mountain, and some other children movies are satanic or anti-christian as well.
They have a screw loose.

When you obviously speak from the ignorance of lack of experience with such forces, powers, it's not greatly impressive.

But in your lifetime, you will observe first hand the potency and horror of such forces. Increasing numbers and levels of them are being loosed on the earth to cause their brands of trouble in our era for the first time in the history of the planet. The first few times that happens, should you survive the first time--you will recall this thread. I hope it's then not too late for you to choose which side you'll be on.

[Gordian Blade]

Coming late to this thread, I'll put my oar in anyway. One important point in LOTR (book) was when Galadriel told Frodo and Sam, who wanted to see some "elf magic," that she didn't exactly understand what they meant by that, since the elves consider what they do to be quite a normal thing. But she assumed they meant by "magic" something she could do that they could not. Similarly, JRRT said that Hobbits possessed no magic of their own except the ordinary kind of being able to move about unobtrusively, which we "big" men cannot quite manage. (Which of course plays into the plot.)

And a final point: If and when Sauron's ring is unmade, the book makes it clear that the magic of the wizards, elves, and dwarves will fade away until Middle Earth is taken over entirely by men, for good or ill. It is a powerful theme in the book that was only hinted at in the movie: by aiding Frodo's quest, the elves are sealing their own eventual doom. (Or perhaps "exodus" or even "return home" would be more accurate.)

[cookcounty]

"So the movie appeals to Christian sensibilities at an unconscious level. "

Or, more likely, "..at a conscious level."

Lots of LOTR fans can recall lengthy discussions along these lines, going back decades.

LOTR is appealing because it deals with big themes. As far as I can tell "Holly Batta" (as the Chinese call him) is pretty much limited to the theme of muddling through life, while trying to be an OK person, using what manipulations present themselves. So beyond the immediate fascination of an "alternate reality," I'm stumped to comprehend its attraction. Maybe I should push myself beyond chapter 2.

[Quix]

Point well taken.

However, in my experience, the average person will focus on the tangible object as the source of evil rather than the intangible spirit residing in it or hanging around it.

[massadvj]

Thoughtful and provocative post. Thanks.

[humblegunner]

"Actually, demons commonly give illusions of increasing an individual's power while all the while tightening their grip on the individual to the individual's eventual destruction. These creatures are not harmless pussycats and friendly buddies. They are assistants to the father of lies and the ultimate Dr Death. They are hell-bent on destroying as much of God's ultimate creation and on messing up as many lives as possible as a way of satan getting vengeance back at God for being tossed out of Heaven"

And you've, ahh, actually seen these demons?

[QuestionBureaucracy]

You are right. A lot can happen in the remaining installments. Its much too early to write off the whole series. I hope Rowling is able to pull it off and complete a series for the ages.

[WhiteKnight]

However, in my experience, the average person will focus on the tangible object as the source of evil rather than the intangible spirit residing in it or hanging around it.

I agree; in essence, people focus on the symptoms rather than the disease. Unfortunately, treating the symptoms in this case, only makes people feel better, but does not cure the root problem.

W.K.

[Quix]

Depends on what you mean by seen.

One can speak of seeing a wind, but it's not really the moving air we see.

Some folk of much experience in my association have "spiritual eyes" gifted at seeing such. I have rarely "seen" such though faintly at times. Mostly I "sense" them often enough in my body--certainly the typical hair on the back of the neck--but mostly I sense them in my spirit and hear in my heart/mind from Holy Spirit what is going on--what a given demonic force's focus, influence is.

But mostly, I don't get caught up in dialogue with such. I don't like talking with or arguing with forces, entities in league with the Father of Lies. What's the point. Just take the authority Christ has bought for us and send them packing. And teach the individuals involved how to stay free.

I suspect you value freedom. You likely haven't the same appreciation for FREEDOM someone who's been bound to/by demonic forces then delivered--experiences. Such freedom can feel incredibly liberating, freeing. If my observations of working with many bound individuals is any clue--Words are not adequate to well describe the different states of being--the bondage is so dark, narrow, restricting, overpowering. The freedom is such a contrast.

Incidentally, the book BONDAGE BREAKER (I think by Anderson) is great classic on getting and staying free of a variety of spiritual, habitual bondages.

[Quix]

Certainly the source of the spiritual bondage must be dealt with in the spiritual realm. Otherwise, the association of spirit to person will occur again, remain regardless of what happens to the original object.

[jdege]

Despite all the rants about magic, magic is beside the point.

Why was Harry good? Why was Valdemort bad? What moral choices underlay the distinctions between good and bad?

Rowling gives us no answer, whatsoever.

Are there any characters in the Potter books who struggle over moral issues in any way whatsoever?

Any sign of temptation? Or of remorse over yielding to it?

The Potter books aren't immoral books, they are amoral books - they include witchcraft in a world in which moral issues are not even mentioned in passing.

The LOTR are very much moral books - the issues of control, and relinquishing control, of temptation, and redemption, of moral choice and choices, are the core of the book. Without them, there would have been nothing.

So I don't think it's the magic, really, that has the fundamentalists up in arms. They may say that they are opposed to depictions of witchcraft, but there have always been depictions of witchcraft, even favorable depictions of witchcraft, that they have not opposed.

What I think really set them off is the idea that it is possible to live in an amoral world - a world without the need to make moral choices.

Harry Potter presents such a world, LOTR does not.

[XJarhead]

Horns! Horns blowing wildly in the North. Rohan had come at last.

My favorite line from The Two Towers. Since it's descriptive only, it won't make the movie. But I'm betting that Peter Jackson is going to do a masterful job at recreating the emotional impact of that line.

[mom of 2 GOP kids]

The whole issue of Harry Potter being bad is simply ridiculous. Im sure these same folks would also say that BedKnobs and Broomsticks, Escape to Witch Mountain, and some other children movies are satanic or anti-christian as well. They have a screw loose.

You can add Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs to the list of "dangerous satanic films filled with witchcraft and evil spells". I am also heartbroken to know that the TV shows Bewitched and The Munsters have also contributed to the corruption of our children. ;p

Also interestingly no one notes that the all the Harry Potter books mention the celebration of the Christmas holidays, as most of the children at the "wizards school" go home to celebrate Christmas with their parents.

[massadvj]

"Actually, demons commonly give illusions of increasing an individual's power while all the while tightening their grip on the individual to the individual's eventual destruction.

Sounds like terrorists versus those who harbor them.

[jdege]

In some ways, Tolkien's mythology parallels the Old Testament. The "genesis" of his mythology involves the rebellion of an archangel (for want of a better term) who believes that he should have the power to create life and be equal to the one God. The Silmarillion, chronologically the first book, is about a war waged by this fallen archangel against the rest of the world. The parallel to the fall of Lucifer is obvious. And as with Satan, the fatal flaw of this archangel is hubris.

The Iluvatar spoke, and he said: `Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

                 - J.R.R. Tolkien, "Ainulindale, The Music of the Ainur"