[silmaril]

It is true that the liberals have hung their hats on the Council and distorted it to great gain, something they would not have been able to do in the absence of the Council....

Well, exactly. The preexistence of the liberals is neither here nor there, really. The fact remains, as you pointed out, that there is this Church Council that validates them. And that's tragic. For your argument to work, you essentially have to downplay the import of that Council, and play up the import of this faction. I think that's getting it backwards.

As for the Catechism statements, I appreciate your posting them, and I'm glad to read them. However, my point about the Church's institutional timorousness on this point still stands.

[patent]

Well, exactly. The preexistence of the liberals is neither here nor there, really. The fact remains, as you pointed out, that there is this Church Council that validates them. And that's tragic. For your argument to work, you essentially have to downplay the import of that Council, and play up the import of this faction. I think that's getting it backwards

No, the Council does not validate them and that is not what I pointed out. What I pointed out is that the fact of a Council happening gave them an opportunity to say things changed. They lied. Repeatedly. Even when caught they keep right on spinning and lieing. You would almost thing our Church liberals taught Clinton.

We have two possible responses. We can skip reading the Counciliar documents and just accept what the liberals say about them. This is the option you are choosing. Even worse we can keep repeating their mantra that the Council mandated this or that. But I challenge you, as I challenge them when it comes up, to find a source for whatever is bugging you about modernist liberal Catholicism in the documents of Vatican II.

Don’t like the altar girls? That’s not called for in VII. Don’t like the vernacular? Vatican II indicates Latin is to retain the primacy of place in the liturgy. Don’t like guitar music at Mass? VII indicates Gregorian Chant is the music, followed by polyphony, not guitar. I could go on all day.

The second possible response is to stop trusting what liberals and schismatics say about Vatican II. Consider reading the documents (click here), always a wise course (whether it be Papal encyclicals or Council documents, your faith will be enriched the more you read). Read and judge for yourself. Then you will be prepared to refute the idea that the Council validates the liberal ideas. Or simply ask your next liberal that makes that claim for a quote. That is always fun.

patent  +AMDG