Ozzie Smith....a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Self | 01/01/02 | John McCoy

[jmccoy1252]

Hi fellow freepers! How about a little MLB Hall of Fame talk. Ozzie Smith, shortstop for the San Diego Padres and St. Louis Cardinals is up for election to the Hall this year. My question is this, Is the Wizard of Oz a first ballot HOF'er? I have follwed baseball since 1975, and I have never seen a better defensive short stop in the game. Ozzie won 14 straight gold gloves between 1980 and 1992. I still say the greatest defensive play I have ever seen by an infielder was when he barehanded a ground ball and threw the runner out at first base. That was against the Braves either in 1978 or 1979. Some people will argue that Ozzie didn't hit enough to get into the hall of fame at all, much less on the first ballot. Oz was a poor hitter for the first 4 years of his career, but he slowly improved and by 1987, he had a .303 batting average. Also, don't forget the element of speed Oz brought to the game, he stole 580 bases in his career. Ozzie is and was a great ambassador for the game, so in my opinion, yes he is a first ballot HOF'er. The only short stops playing today I would take over Ozzie are A-Rod and Jeter, who are both future HOF'ers in their own right.

[TheExploited]

Someone mentioned Brooks Robinson. I am a great fan of his because an autograpghed picture when I was 10 years old. However, he is only a marginal HOFer at best. He did win an MVP in 1964 and was a big part for two World Series winners. As a fielder, He was only slightly ahead of Clete Boyer and later Graig Nettles. He was still a good offensive player especially in the 1960's which was a tough time for hitters. A player should come the the HOF with more than a glove.

[barker]

Don't know how to post the picture of the slide but it's right here .

[Tall_Texan]

162.Game.Avg..AB..R...H..2B.3B.HR.RBI.SB.CS.BB.SO...BA..OBP..SLG..TB

OzzieSmith.......592.79.155..25..4...2...50...37..9...67...37....262...337...328..194

D.Concepcion..568.65.151..25...3...7...62...21..7...48...77....267..322...357..203

I see two pretty equal players - one with more speed and the other with better power. Are you trying to say that on defense ALONE, one is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the other doesn't get into the Hall at all? BTW, Concepcion won five Gold Gloves himself, so he was no slouch on defense.

[L.N. Smithee]

Concepcion won five Gold Gloves himself, so he was no slouch on defense.

You gotta take some points off for the way Concepcion would bounce throws to first off Riverfront's rock-hard turf.

[Wrigley]

Oh my. And here I thought I was the least graceful man on the face of the earth.

[Wrigley]

I remember two Kingman homeruns that still amaze me. Both were are Wrigley. The first is the one he hit down Kimball Ave in that 23-22 game against the Phillies. The second was a one handed drive against the wind to staight away center.

Too bad homeruns were all he could do. But some of my favorite Cub memories involve him.

[GreatOne]

IMHO, it's not the issue of whether Concepcion was no slouch on defense. He was a good ballplayer, and would still be one of the top 10 shortstops today.

However, Smith is, again IMHO inarguably, the GREATEST fielding shortstop of all time; not merely "no slouch". That's why he goes in. Concepcion was solid; Smith spectacular - head and shoulders above everyone else.

This might irritate you, but I don't think that Tony Perez should be in the HOF. Perez was solid, and had solid stats. But, as I stated earlier, the HOF is for the best of the best. He's very similar to Steve Garvey, but not in the same category of Cepeda, Stargell, or McCovey. Perez, IMHO, is the hitting equivalent to Don Sutton, Tommy John, Bert Blyleven, and Jim Kaat - consistent over a long period of time, racking up the numbers. If Perez is in, why not Gil Hodges, or even George Foster?

If you look at it, it's why Aaron is never really mentioned in a lot of people's top 10 outfielders. He never got hurt, and put up great numbers over a long period of time. But even though he was number one in hr's and rbi's, would you rather have him over Ruth, Cobb, Williams, DiMaggio, Mays, or even Mantle?

[the_doc]

I would vote for him and Harriet.

[GreatOne]

I think the thing with Tris Speaker is that he played so long ago that his fielding stats is just plain overlooked (449 assists!!). In addition to fielding is overlooked anyway, look at all the centerfielders who came after him: DiMaggio, Mantle, Ashburn, and Mays, as well as other great defensive outfielders. It's not like with Ruth and Cobb, since hitting stats have always been referred to, and theirs just jump out at you. Plus, no film of his great plays.

[eddie willers]

                                       "D'oh!"

[TheHeterodoxConservative]

"it's a hype thing, not a worthiness thing."

I'm not sure that "hype" is the correct word. But certain players add an element of personality and entertainment that transcend baseball skills, and that, rightly or wrongly, seem to contribute to their selection to the Hall of Fame.

One of my personal all-time favorite players, Kirby Pucket, made it in on the first try. His per-season numbers, yes, were fantastic, but his career was short. The fact that he was one of the most popular players in the country during his career, as well as the fact that he was a tremendous ambassador for the game, I'm sure didn't cost him any votes.

Ozzie has some of those same characteristics, in addition to his skills and his stats.

(I was a big-time Reds fan in the Concepcion days, and I'd love to see him there, so I understand your comparison; I just don't think I'd use as perjorative a term as "hype" for the extra that Ozzie has going for him.)

[barker]

Thanks for posting the picture for me. It's a classic.

[BluesDuke]

Is the Wizard of Oz a first ballot HOF'er?

This question shouldn't even need asking, assuming that the HOF voters are going to be voting with their brains. Now, that won't stop some nimrod whose brains have gone to bed from voting against the idea, but Ozzie Smith was the greatest defencive shortstop of his generation and several more, and that should say plenty enough on his behalf. (If you're talking about the greatest shortstop in terms of the balance between his glove and hands and his bat, then Cal Ripken, Jr. obviously pulls up a shard ahead of Ozzie, particularly since Ripken defied a stereotype and actualised what only one man previously - Ernie Banks - suggested possible in baseball: that a big man could play shortstop with authority and hit for higher-than-expected figures for his position over a consistent spread of his career. Smith was obviously a better glove man than Ripken, but for a two-way shortstop Ripken has the edge - and, needless to say, he will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer when his time comes.)

When enough players are getting in who sell lots and lotsa offence but played the field like dump trucks with broken hydraulics, I think there's no need to justify putting a man in who hit only so-so but whose glove and field work may well have saved his teams a couple of runs a game. From a man who believes it was unconscionable that Bill Mazeroski should have waited as long as he did to get into Cooperstown (he had, and still has, believe it or not, the best defencive statistics of any player period), Ozzie Smith should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[BluesDuke]

If Ron Santos is not in why should OD be voted in?

The "if him, then why not him" argument is really one of the more specious arguments to make on behalf of a player or against another player - but Ron Santo does belong in the Hall of Fame. So did Bill Mazeroski. And we could probably begin making some excellent cases on players who ought to be out of the Hall regardless of the "if one then the other" thing...

[BluesDuke]

However, he is only a marginal HOFer at best. He did win an MVP in 1964 and was a big part for two World Series winners. As a fielder, He was only slightly ahead of Clete Boyer and later Graig Nettles.

He was only slightly ahead of Clete Boyer - as a hitter. He was way ahead of Graig Nettles (and anyone else who ever played the position - though Clete Boyer was an excellent fielding third baseman, maybe the number three fielding third sacker behind Robinson among those who played in the same era) as a fielder. Brooks Robinson was the greatest fielding third baseman of them all; it isn't even close. And if you can say with a straight face, "A player should come the the HOF with more than a glove," you really haven't been paying attention to the HOF rounds over a good many years. There are how many players in the Hall whose bats were megapotent but whose field work made Dave Kingman resemble Willie Mays? Reality check: The superfielders who have lots and lotsa defence to sell but barely half that in offence haven't got half the shrift given those with lots and lotsa bat to sell and defence with more leaks than a government agency.

[BluesDuke]

Every one of those pitchers was a better pitcher because Ozzie Smith was out there. That's a lot of pitchers. That's a lot of balls that didn't get through. That's a lot of doubleplays he started.

Whoa, horsie. Let's have some perspective on that one, bearing in mind that it does not cheapen the argument on behalf of The Wiz: the Cardinal pitching staffs of Ozzie Smith's years, especially those managed by Whitey Herzog, were predominantly ground ball pitchers in the first place, and you could have put Eddie Gaedel at shortstop on a Whitey Herzog team (and there are those who argue that, while the White Rat managed the Royals in the 1970s, they damn near did have Eddie Gaedel out there, only his name was Freddie Patek - who was an above average player most of his career, if not quite a Hall of Famer) and gotten him a host of double-play balls. Herzog prized pitchers who got ground balls or line drives over pitchers who were customarily flyball pitchers; it was the exception rather than a rule for a Royals or Cardinals staff under his jurisdiction to include more than one predominantly flyball pitcher.

This doesn't diminish Ozzie Smith by any means; the man remains the greatest defencive shortstop of them all and he has earned his ticket to Cooperstown. And he did start a lot of double plays - but so did Tommy Herr, his second baseman for most of his best seasons in St. Louis. It came with the territory. But a) starting double plays is at best half an infielder's job, with cutting off base hits the other and perhaps more critical half of it (I think they call this range factor, though it might be interesting as well, assuming anyone has the patience to do it, to measure the ratio of an infielder's assists to base hits allowed, not to mention the ratio of his double plays begun against baserunners he failed directly to keep off base); and, b) anyone who says the Cardinal pitchers were better pitchers because of Ozzie Smith behind him (as opposed to saying they were better pitchers with him behind them, which is quite different) simply did not really watch the Cardinals in the prime of Smith's years with the team, and especially when Herzog was their manager.

[Jay W]

I'd like to see as many Minnesota Twins as possible be nominated for the Hall of Fame, just to rub it into Bud Selig, the destroyer of baseball.

[BluesDuke]

Are you trying to say that on defense ALONE, one is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the other doesn't get into the Hall at all? BTW, Concepcion won five Gold Gloves himself, so he was no slouch on defense.

Dave Concepcion was a very good shortstop who most likely earned five Gold Gloves in seasons when there wasn't any particularly outstanding shortstop (Ozzie was a youngish sprout gaining his water wings when Concepcion was in his prime years, for the most part) and playing on the Big Red Machine brought you an awful lot of name recognition. (The turf argument doesn't even wash; Ozzie played the meat of his career on the rug, too, folks, but he also played well enough on grass, especially his final three seasons in San Diego.) Concepcion does not, however, have much more than half of what Ozzie Smith has to sell in terms of defence. It isn't even close. Concepcion was a fine baseball player and a valuable shortstop - but in the field he was no Ozzie Smith.

[Judith Anne]

I watched a lot of baseball when Ozzie played for the Cards and boy! Did he EVER make the game fun! I wish I remembered ALL the names from the lineup in (IIRC)82 or 83, Terry Pendleton, Jack Clark, Willie McGee, what a TEAM!!! Hope Ozzie makes it, he was baseball...