Posted on 01/20/2002 8:45:33 AM PST by Demidog
I attack any stupid decision by our government. You're busy cheering those decisions because you are bent on interpreting anything negative toward support of Israel or things they do as shilling for the PA.
You said you stood for the truth. The truth is that we are being robbed blind and have no choice where the money goes claims that our vote makes a different notwithstanding.
You refuse to distinguish valid criticisms from invalid ones. Planting booby traps where children play is wrong no matter what the motivation. And I'll tell you something else that is wrong even though I might have felt that it was right at the time. The man that shot up that Batmitzvah was executed on the spot by Israeli police.
I don't agree with that either. He wasn't just shot in a gun battle with police. He had been subdued by the crowd. The police dragged him out of the building and shot him 4 times in the head. That is swift justice for sure. But it goes against everything that the U.S. has long stood for. Namely due process. Perhaps not anymore. At any rate. It is not anti-Semitic to call that wrong. And it isn't shilling for Palestinians to say that American taxpayer money should only fund the legitimate functions of OUR government and not our allies or terrorist dictators abroad.
Remarkable, yes. Sad, also.
It seems every religion has its share of leaders who are willing to betray their faith.
Judas comes to mind.
And if you support aid to Israel then you support aid to that terrorist. Plain and simple. The other fact is, that Israel has to cow tow to U.S. demands because of that support. Our aid to Israel and Palestine and the KLA is all wrong because it is taken by force from you and I. And it is used in order to exert influence and control over all.
Why else would the U.S. be a party to the peace process? Because we're the benevolant nation? If we were so benevolant we wouldn't be stealing from our own to prop up people like Arafat. I don't like Sharon much either. So I don't like supporting Sharon either. But what choice have I got? I either support both of these thugs or I go to jail.
We bought our way into the middle east peace process and the only thing we've managed to do is screw it up.
DD if you will recall after WWII we helped relocate many there and promised them support. This was a committment we made and committment we must honor.
Nonetheless, I must admit you are correct in a manner here. Our system of taxation has extracted dollars from us and sent those dollars to the terrorist Arafat. Surely we had no say in the matter nor did we make such committment as we did to the folks we helped relocate there after WWII. This sin of supporting terrorism cannot be reconciled and is in conflict to our original committment to the folks we promised support.
He was already subdued. Are you so sure USA police would also execute the man? This wasn't a gun battle. The articles Dennisw posted into another thread were explicit about that fact. The crowd had swarmed him and were beating him. The police dragged him from the scene and shot him four times in the head.
[110b]
Our Rabbis taught: One should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a town most of whose inhabitants are idolaters, but let no one live outside the Land, even in a town most of whose inhabitants are Israelites; for whoever lives in the Land of Israel may be considered to have a God, but whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who has no God. For it is said in Scripture, To give you the Land of Canaan, to be your God. Has he, then, who does not live in the Land, no God? But [this is what the text intended] to tell you, that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols. Similarly it was said in Scripture in [the story of] David, For they have driven me out this day that I should not cleave to the inheritance of the Lord, saying: Go, serve other gods. Now, whoever said to David, ‘Serve other gods’? But [the text intended] to tell you that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols.
R. Zera was evading Rab Judah because he desired to go up to the Land of Israel while Rab Judah had expressed [the following view:] Whoever goes up from Babylon to the Land of Israel transgresses a positive commandment, for it is said in Scripture,
[111a]
They shall be carried to Babylon, and there shall they be, until the day that I remember them, saith the Lord. And R. Zera? — That text1 refers to the vessels of ministry. And Rab Judah? — Another text also is available:3 I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please]’. And R. Zera? — That implies that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall. And Rab Judah? — Another ‘I adjure you’ is written in Scripture. And R. Zera? — That text is required for [an exposition] like that of R. Jose son of R. Hanina who said: ‘What was the purpose of those three adjurations? — One, that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall; the second, that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world; and the third is that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured the idolaters that they shall not oppress Israel too much’. And Rab Judah? — It is written in Scripture, That ye awaken not, nor stir up. And R. Zera? — That text is required for [an exposition] like that of R. Levi who stated: ‘What was the purpose of those six adjurations? — Three for the purposes just mentioned and the others, that [the prophets] shall not make known the end, that [the people] shall not delay the end, and that they shall not reveal the secret to the idolaters’.
I get the sense that Zionism per se is neither encouraged nor discouraged in the Talmud. However, considering the central role of the Land of Israel in the theology of Judaism it seems quite clear that a *return* to the land has always been a desire and priority of Jews. The quote given above is really provides weak support for the anti-Zionist (or non-Zionist) position.
Based on these considerations and the Talmudic quote given above I would say that anti-Zionism in Judaism would definitely be a minority viewpoint.
Perhaps someone with an in depth knowledge of these issues could comment.
I guess Bush is stupid and the American Congress as well. You're smarter than them of course.
You said you stood for the truth. The truth is that we are being robbed blind and have no choice where the money goes claims that our vote makes a different notwithstanding.
Run for office then. In the meantime other people pay taxes who do approve of the support.
You refuse to distinguish valid criticisms from invalid ones. Planting booby traps where children play is wrong no matter what the motivation. And I'll tell you something else that is wrong even though I might have felt that it was right at the time. The man that shot up that Batmitzvah was executed on the spot by Israeli police.
Figures. Takes some incidents of error and make a policy of them and then yap about moral equivalency. That kind of lame-brained argument is fit for the dogs.
I don't agree with that either. He wasn't just shot in a gun battle with police. He had been subdued by the crowd. The police dragged him out of the building and shot him 4 times in the head. That is swift justice for sure. But it goes against everything that the U.S. has long stood for. Namely due process. Perhaps not anymore. At any rate. It is not anti-Semitic to call that wrong. And it isn't shilling for Palestinians to say that American taxpayer money should only fund the legitimate functions of OUR government and not our allies or terrorist dictators abroad.
LOL! Let somebody come into your wedding or service and shoot your mom, or dad, or grandfather and guests and then come back to me about "due process". The guy was packing grenades a gun and possibly a body bomb. It's a basic and fundamental principle of law - self-defence and the fact you don't have to weigh with a nicety the force you use to defend yourself - especially when men, women and children are being shot around you. Give it up. The more you talk the weaker you sound.
The problem with that is you are admitting passively that it is not proper to do but perhaps it was ok because he wasn't a citizen of Israel. The real problem with this is allowing your police to become judge, jury and executioner. That's not the kind of power you want your police to have. As I stated above. I certainly would have wanted to do it myself. I still think it's wrong. And it most certainly is NOT anti-Semetic or anti Israel to say so. I'm not saying you're making that claim. The original point was about the assertion that even valid criticisms are treated as .
Do you think you would have known the triggering device? What are you now, an expert on detonation?
Weak. Theft is OK as long as a goodly number agree with it. Don't ever mouth off about moral equivalency. It's apparently part of your new religious beliefs.
If you want to change the balance of power then run for office and change it big talker. Otherwise all I see is a big talking typist.
I believe what you are failing to distinguish is the differentiation between a police action and war against terrorism. When a man strides into a gathering of innocents who are celebrating in a festive tradition and begins cutting them down one by one... then that is war...and war is hell. Death to the intruder is the only reasonable and acceptable conclusion.
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