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Not Yours to Give
personal archives ^ | Provided as courtesy by Charles Starr for Congress

Posted on 01/23/2002 9:15:27 AM PST by Chapita

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Davey Crockett would be deemed an unenlightened redneck by today's elite!
1 posted on 01/23/2002 9:15:27 AM PST by Chapita (riverends)
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

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To: Hobey Baker
"From The Life of Davey Crockett, compiled by Richard S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884)."

Yep, those were the days of the great liars!

4 posted on 01/23/2002 9:29:12 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
Too bad the story isn't true. Crockett was a charlatan.
5 posted on 01/23/2002 9:35:37 AM PST by Huck
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To: boston_liberty
Thank you for pointing that out! It is saved.
6 posted on 01/23/2002 9:36:08 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Huck
Am I supposed to take your word on that?
7 posted on 01/23/2002 9:37:27 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
You can do whatever you want with it. Fact is, it isn't true. Did you check on it, or are you taking Mr. Ellis's word for it? Is "One day in House" good enough for you, or would you question why the date isn't given, citing the Congressional Record? Would you assume that all that old timey dialogue presented as fact was verbatim, or would you wonder if it weren't actually invented? And if you chose to ask those simple questions, and couldn't find answers, what would you do? Assume the unsubstantiated story is fact, or that it is unsubstantiated? I would look it up. But hey, you posted it. You look it up.
8 posted on 01/23/2002 9:49:21 AM PST by Huck
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To: Huck
I've just been browsing the first 80 sites which reference this, but you seem to be a master of the Frankfurt School tenets!

You are the one who said it is bogus, then you want me to prove you wrong? A bit clintonian, huh?

9 posted on 01/23/2002 10:03:09 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
Change that to 137 sites that make reference to Davy Crockett's speech! But I could be wrong and Huck could be right. So far the score is 137 to 0! In my favor!
10 posted on 01/23/2002 10:15:38 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
"From The Life of Davey Crockett, compiled by Richard S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884)."

Have you actually read this book?

11 posted on 01/23/2002 10:21:40 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
No! But I just got through reading articles from four different sites which use this book for reference.
12 posted on 01/23/2002 10:41:46 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
I wonder how long a clintonesque author would have fared back in the 1880s?
13 posted on 01/23/2002 10:44:07 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
Did they read the book?
14 posted on 01/23/2002 10:47:13 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: Chapita
Great post!
15 posted on 01/23/2002 10:50:44 AM PST by jo6pac
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To: AppyPappy
What are you suggesting?
16 posted on 01/23/2002 10:50:45 AM PST by Chapita
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To: AppyPappy
I was not present when the constitution was written, nor the Federalist Papers, so I cannot vouch for my eyes and ears, nor can I qualify for direct testimony!

Nor was I around for the writing of the Bible.

Some things I cannot claim to be an absolute witness!

17 posted on 01/23/2002 11:02:57 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
bump
18 posted on 01/23/2002 11:09:21 AM PST by billbears
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To: Chapita
That references to books only count if the book actually exists and if the citation is backed up somehow. What makes me suspicious is that this has been rolling around in email for years.
19 posted on 01/23/2002 11:10:31 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: Chapita
You are the one who said it is bogus, then you want me to prove you wrong?

Actually, I said you could do whatever you want. I am not obliged to do your research for you. People read this piece and believe it is true because they want it to be true. But there is no documentation. Some dime store novelist made it up over 100 years ago. As the TV show says, "the truth is out there." Some people choose not to look for it. Not my problem.

20 posted on 01/23/2002 11:12:22 AM PST by Huck
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To: AppyPappy
Not to mention the fact that the activities of the House were fairly well documented during the time of Crockett's term. There were two publications (I forget the names) that recorded speeches and so on. That's how we know of the famous Webster-Hayne debate, for example.

When one looks up Crockett's term, oddly, the thing he is most remembered for is advocating free land for squatters, i.e., the government giving land to Tennesseans. That doesn't appear to square with this quaint little myth.

21 posted on 01/23/2002 11:15:24 AM PST by Huck
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To: AppyPappy
The Bible is just a book, right? Are you a witness to the scribing?

Have you checked your FReep Mail? 137 sites which reference this article.......... do I need more?

22 posted on 01/23/2002 11:31:07 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Huck
427 websites speak of "Horatio Bunce" some of them are education related.
23 posted on 01/23/2002 11:31:37 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: Huck
Edward Sylvester Ellis was born April 11, 1840 in Geneva, Ohio, and married Anna M. Deane in 1862. After Anna’s death he married again in 1900, this time to Clara Spalding Brown of Los Angeles. He attended the State Normal School of New Jersey and, while he was little more than a boy, he began teaching. He later went on to become a school principal and superintendent of schools of Trenton. In 1860 he published his most successful book, Seth Jones, or the Captives of the Frontier. It’s sudden, immense success was the catalyst which caused him to abandon teaching in order to concentrate on his writing career.

In 1874 and 1875 Mr. Ellis served as editor of Public Opinion, a Trenton daily newspaper. From 1878 to 1881 he was editor of Golden Days and in 1891 was editor of Holiday. Both magazines were for children. Edward Ellis specialized in boys’ stories, inspirational biography, and history for both children and adults. He was a major author during the era of inexpensive fiction of the nineteenth century which was known as the "dime novel." Because he wrote under dozens of pseudonyms, as well as under his own name, it is virtually impossible to know just exactly how many books Mr. Ellis wrote. It is believed there were hundreds.

Edward was a young schoolteacher when he wrote his first novel mentioned above (Seth Jones). Many of his books were adventure tales of the frontier with settings ranging from the days when the eastern United States was being settled, to the expansion of the American West of the late nineteenth century. Using the pseudonyms Bruin Adams or J.F.C. Adams, Ellis claimed to be a nephew of renowned Western frontiersman James Capen ("Grizzly") Adams, and in this guise he published several novels. One of his most popular characters in these books was Deerfoot who was a native American. His works were considered to be well written by the standards that prevailed in that day, and were enjoyed by adults as well as by young people.

Until the middle eighteen eighties Ellis wrote, primarily, works of fiction. After that time, he turned to writing accounts of historical events, mostly for adults. He issued a number of personal statements about whatever was most important in the minds of the public of that day. In his histories he was always fair in his opinions on differences within the nation, but internationally he espoused American preeminence. He said: "The record of no people can approach it in magnificence of achievement as regards art, science, education, literature, invention, and all that makes for true progress." (From Tent to White House, 1899, p.7). He believed that the normal expectancy of human life is a hundred years, that a teacher should excel in athletic prowess, and that "the vices of cigarette smoking, of tobacco chewing, of beer and alcoholic drinking, threaten the very existence of the rising generation." (Continental Primary Physiology, 1885, p.9).

Edward Ellis died at Cliff Island, Maine in 1916 at the age of 76.

24 posted on 01/23/2002 11:33:04 AM PST by wattsmag2
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To: Huck
****************"To: Chapita

Too bad the story isn't true. Crockett was a charlatan.

5 posted on 1/23/02 10:35 AM Pacific by Huck [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report

***************************************

Sorry! I guess I can't read!

25 posted on 01/23/2002 11:33:47 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Walt Griffith
Shucks! You blew my trap!
26 posted on 01/23/2002 11:37:35 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Huck
Here is another site you might be interested in. It also quotes the above article. I'm sure you will be able to prove that the rest of the articles there are bogus also.
27 posted on 01/23/2002 11:37:57 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: Huck
Reads like cornpone fiction, whatever the hell cornpone is.
28 posted on 01/23/2002 11:39:03 AM PST by dead
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To: Chapita
Story on Ron Pauls website

Originally published in "The Life of Colonel David Crockett," by Edward Sylvester Ellis.

29 posted on 01/23/2002 11:40:33 AM PST by Grit
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To: Chapita
It wasn't much of a trap. This guy was just to easy.

Best Regards

30 posted on 01/23/2002 11:40:52 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: Huck, AppyPappy
Here is a link to where one might buy the original published 1884 if one is so inclined to refuted a quote in it.

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=Edward+S.+Ellis&title=&submit=Begin+Search&new_used=*&currency=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr

31 posted on 01/23/2002 11:41:14 AM PST by wattsmag2
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To: Walt Griffith
Don't need much for a public school- post '65!
32 posted on 01/23/2002 11:42:24 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita
Old timer Class "o" 57, First son 65.
33 posted on 01/23/2002 11:44:39 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: Huck
When one looks up Crockett's term, oddly, the thing he is most remembered for is advocating free land for squatters, i.e., the government giving land to Tennesseans.

You mean the government offering land to those willing to risk their lives and fortunes if they would just help the US settle new territories? Do you think of this as a giveaway? Do you think all the people who settled land in the land rushes were given something akin to welfare? What a crock.

34 posted on 01/23/2002 11:45:04 AM PST by wattsmag2
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To: wattsmag2
The government still should not own any land!!!
35 posted on 01/23/2002 11:47:01 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: Walt Griffith
Exactly.
36 posted on 01/23/2002 11:48:34 AM PST by wattsmag2
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To: Walt Griffith
We're from back when they really taught American history, true history, not re-invented history.

Oh well, late for my nap!

37 posted on 01/23/2002 11:49:40 AM PST by Chapita
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To: Grit
It does appear that Mr. Ellis primarily wrote childrens fiction.
38 posted on 01/23/2002 11:49:44 AM PST by Grit
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To: wattsmag2
Oh! I'd give them the original site of DC, but they should not be allowed outside of it.
39 posted on 01/23/2002 11:52:20 AM PST by Walt Griffith
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To: wattsmag2
You mean the government offering land to those willing to risk their lives and fortunes if they would just help the US settle new territories? Do you think of this as a giveaway?

I think of giving away land as a giveaway. Yes.

40 posted on 01/23/2002 12:11:53 PM PST by Huck
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To: Chapita
137 sites which reference this article.......... do I need more?

No. You just need one that cites a reference. 137 references to this one kid's book is one dubious reference, no matter how many times it's put on a web page.

41 posted on 01/23/2002 12:14:24 PM PST by Huck
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To: wattsmag2
Is this the state of conservatism? Question nothing? If it feels good, believe it? Sad.
42 posted on 01/23/2002 12:17:44 PM PST by Huck
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To: Huck
Then you think the government was entitled to claim this land in the first place?
43 posted on 01/23/2002 12:21:18 PM PST by wattsmag2
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To: Huck
You did not question, you said this was not true. To complete your error, you offered no proof while plenty of fact was offered to you. Now if you want to continue your assinine ways, put up or shut the hell up.
44 posted on 01/23/2002 12:23:37 PM PST by wattsmag2
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To: Walt Griffith
I dare anyone to find a source for this story which does not derive from Mr. Ellis's little book.
45 posted on 01/23/2002 12:23:48 PM PST by Huck
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To: Huck
No. You just need one that cites a reference. 137 references to this one kid's book is one dubious reference, no matter how many times it's put on a web page.

Another asinine statement. I offered you a treatise which implicitly stated that Ellis was a writer for ADULTS.

46 posted on 01/23/2002 12:25:41 PM PST by wattsmag2
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To: wattsmag2
To complete your error, you offered no proof while plenty of fact was offered to you.

No fact was offered. All we have established is that a 19th century writer of children's books and dime store adventures published this story. I don't recall any other corroberration. If that's enough proof for you....bwahahahahaaa!!

47 posted on 01/23/2002 12:27:05 PM PST by Huck
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To: Huck
I dare anyone to find a source for this story which does not derive from Mr. Ellis's little book.

The book is in print. Has been for over a hundred years, unlike your own prose. You have found a refutation of Ellis' work?

48 posted on 01/23/2002 12:28:23 PM PST by wattsmag2
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To: wattsmag2
The book is in print. Has been for over a hundred years

Is that your standard? So Captain Ahab was real. Treasure Island, too. Right?

49 posted on 01/23/2002 12:30:05 PM PST by Huck
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To: Huck
Again, I offered you a treatise that said he was writing for ADULTS during this time frame. Can you refute? No, I didn't think so. It is far easier to run off at the mouth than actually sit down and write a treatise.
50 posted on 01/23/2002 12:30:32 PM PST by wattsmag2
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