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To: DoughtyOne
The reason I have such scepticism about these kinds of theories is that they go against everything I know about submarines and missiles. I spent almost 9 years on active duty in the Navy all of it with the Atlantic Fleet. I was stationed on guided missile destroyers and frigates for almost all of it. My ships have operated against U.S. and Allied boats time and again in exercises, and conducted a number of missile firings, including several fired at night. And I can sat without a doubt that none of the descriptions I have seen remotely resembles any of the missile firings I have participated in. A missile fired at night lights up the sky like nothing you have ever seen. It rides a plume of smoke and flame the length of a telephone pole. There is no way that a Navy ship could have fired a missile anywhere near TWA800 without someone seeing something like that. Second, of all the live fire exercises I have participated in, none of them took place north of the Virginia capes. All of the missile firings took place off Puerto Rico. Missiles aren't fired near Long Island precisely because it is the most heavily travelled air corridore in the world. None of these theories make the slightest bit of sense to me and I speak as someone who knows what he is talking about.
59 posted on 02/01/2002 3:32:57 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
I don't discount your personal observations.  I have no reason to doubt anything that you are stating, so just because I debate this issue shouldn't be taken as disputing your personal experience or expertise.

Let's remember that this aircraft was 13 miles off the coast of Long Island.  That's over the horizon to those on land.  What they would see is a small missile type object heading up to the plane.  They would have seen a missile trail at that distance, but they wouldn't see as much as you might think.  What would a telephone pole look like at 13 miles?  Even the flame wouldn't be that big.  The military people who saw this, recognized it for what it was.  You're looking at 8:00 p.m. on a summer night.  They would not see the ship.  And this occured while the sky was still somewhat light.  Let's face it, the private boating that might have been out that far in the daytime was likey headed for or at shore by the time this happened.  13 miles is quite a distance to sea for most people.

As for missile exercises taking place out there, I've seen the picture that everyone else has of that missile near the beach.  I have also seen reports from other captains seeing a missile in their vacinity about a month after TWA-800.  Some testing does seem to have been taking place out there.  If I'm not remembering incorrectly, it was acknowledged that south of Long Island, not that much, but a ways beyond TWA-800's flight path was an area acknowledged to be used for certain testing including missiles.

I realize you know what you are talking about.  Let's accept that this was not a normal operation.  I doubt you've seen three submarines surfaced near Long Island very often.  Perhaps that's not true.  But something unusual was going on.  The fact that lies were told to avoid having to admit those subs were there is significant to me.

62 posted on 02/01/2002 4:04:47 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: Non-Sequitur
--if what you say is accurate at that date, the twa 800 "incident", then what terminology do you want to use to describe a grouping of military assets conducting *something*.? Is this called an "exercise"? What else would you call what as going on off of long island then, if not an exercise? this is getting into what "is" is here.......... Semantics aside, it "looks" like an exercise off of long island to this admitedly untrained internet discusser.

Point 2, I'm a long time computer user. I've seen computers do some goofy stuff before. The military at any one time during one of these non-exercise exercises has to be running dozens if not hundreds of computers, all trying to work together. Hmm, wonder why the computer industry needs zillions of trained sysadmins, could it be because computers have to be tweaked and repaired and fixed all the time because they messup, they don't "do" exactly what you intended them to do? Just maybe? Or our are military computers all 100% reliable all the time, everyplace, never break, never ned adjusting, always so perfect that nothing weird ever happens between the old human actions and the hard and software actions? This is the stance I seem to be reading from all the military guys here, as in "no way, it could never happen.

I would like to purchase one of these 100% reliable, never mess up and won't let ya mess up computers, if one of the military guys would point out the exact brand of said miracle computer.

. To me, it's possible that a computer malfunction occurred, leading to a launch. Besides that, I couldn't tell ya which computer system or whatnot, I'm sure they have a lot of failsafes, but I really couldn't ever claim computers always do what you think they are going to do. Software conflicts with a hardware glitch perhaps. I'll let someone else claim that is reality, ie, the "never break or fail" brand peecee.

Now this isn't my personal pet theory, just throwing it out. My pet theory- at this point- is "it"- a missile- was launched from a small boat in the immediate area, by so far "unknown and not identified" people, either middle eastern terrorists, or by rogue mercenary units under the direction of the shadow government types "just following orders". As to "who's' government, that's up in the air as well. Anyone and their cuizzin leroy could have had a boat in that area at that time. No need for a massive conventional forces coverup then, only a tiny small number of people who needed to keep their mouths shut, quite do-able and possible.

The navy perhaps wouldn't have had anything to do with it, but they were used as a collective "patsy" as obviously attention would have been directed to them, and initially they would have denied everything from precisely the fact it was 100% plausibly deniable from their point of view, because they honestly didn't do it, they just happened to be in the area at the same time. whoopise in other words. maybe it was even one of those cosmic joke dealies, the shooters didn't know they were going to be inside this non exercise exercise, it was just a legit coincidence, surprising the heck out of everyone concerned. Iranian airbus deal was such a happenstance. Think richard jewell scenario on a different scale. someone does something, so publically they glom onto the first things that come to attention, eventually get bogged down into a whodunit. It's called leaving a false trail, quite common in crime that is premeditated. The navy honestly had nothing to do with it, but being all around the area when it went down would have gone into emergency WHATTHEFUGJUSTHAPPENED? mode, and understandably so.

That's my theory so far, as to who did it or why, then the possibilites can get complex and extreme. There are even a variety of motives I can see here. So far, the el al plane that was 'supposed" to be in that area and wasn't is most intriguing, as they delayed their flight , and twa 800 took off ahead of them. perhaps the el al flight was the real target? I don't know, ansd that really is just one of many possibilities. In this day, an el al flight would certainly be considered a target by "someone". Perhaps it was just a random flight targeted. perhaps.

As to the exact species of missile used, no idea, nor do I think *every* possible missile that exists is available for public review or discussion. Again, I'd really like to meet the government military employee or ex employee who has had access to EVERYTHING. Personally, I doubt such a job description exists, I doubt seriously US Presidents ever get to look at everything. I doubt even cia directors get to see everything. Maybe someone does have this experience, and has a habit of posting on internet forums, but I doubt it. Like, does the military admit to brilliant buzzard or aurora yet? Anyone reading this want to admit to any high performance aircraft that exists at this time but isn't officially recognized? Or does anyone here on the forum admit to being a total insider in ALL foreign nations development labs, so they can 'rule out" a russian or chinese or french or italian or israeli or whatnot missile? Prototypes can exist in small numbers of "working models", yes? And the world market in weaponry certainly appears to be if you got the cash yopu can buy whatever you want, either legitimately, or via cutouts, from theft, or whatever. Maybe someone has come up with a missile that doesn't leave as nasty a smoke trail. maybe there's something out there that can out perform the what-30 year old stinger technology, whatever it is? I dunno, but can't state with certainty no one *hasn't* yet, as I lost my bilderburger card and they quit sending me updated intel emails.

%^)

Last point, if center fuel tanks explode, why don't they ground and repair jumbo jets for this 'problem"? If doors blow off in midflight, which causes planes to explode in midair and then climb thousands of feet UP, why no grounding and repair efforts? We see it with other verifiable airframe problems, when they find a serious design flaw, they usually fix the other ones, eventually anyway, so why in twa800 case, no "fixes" apparent on other jumbo jets of similar design? Any exactly why again was the fbi and cia involved in a "normal" plane accident? Do they usually do this, was this past SOP for the industry and government?

66 posted on 02/01/2002 5:03:28 AM PST by zog
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