Posted on 02/06/2002 11:44:28 AM PST by inflorida
This just reported on Fox news. A 10 year old child in Pennsylvania was accidentally shot in the head during a school demonstration by an off-duty cop.
The child is expected to survive.
The ignorance that you refer to is primarily found among law enforcement officers tasked with training others in the handling of Glock pistols. The most common Glock-related AD is the one where, while holstering the weapon, the trigger finger is inside the trigger guard when the officer begins to push downward. There was a thread on FR this past year about an FBI Agent who shot himself in the calf while trying to holster a Glock at the pistol range. Pure carelessness, but back when the cops carried double-action revolvers, that sort of mistake did not usually result in a negligent discharge - the trigger pull was too stiff. IMHO, *ALL* law enforcement Glocks should be equipped with the stiffer "New York" trigger pack. If civilians want the lighter trigger pull, that is a different matter.
Post 76. My glock really did blow up in my hand using factory ammo in the middle of a match with many witnesses. Nor was there any indication of an overcharged round on the backstop. I figure it was a failure to go fully into battery, but with the slide far enough forward to engage the trigger. With the round not fully supported in the chamber, it blew out every moving part in the gun and mashed the mag out the bottom. That said, the chances of it happening have to be less than 1 in a million given the large number of glocks in the world, and the gun always manages to go bang, one way or the other. I still carry one, figuring I've had my one Kb!
I was hot to buy one of those new Glock 36s when they finally hit the dealer shelves, but the "unsupported case head" problems made me reconsider. I suppose the smart thing to do would be to get an aftermarket barrel with a better chamber design. Good excuse to toss the "fingerprinted" factory barrel, right? :-)
.
To clear a semiautomatic handgun, you always drop the magazine then rack the slide to clear the chamber.
The Glock is no different in clearing than any other SA handgun.
The part of a SA handgun which contains the ammunition is always called the magazine.
XeniaSt
NRA Certified Training/Counselor
Trainer of NRA Certified Instructors
When a Glock is "cocked", the trigger moves into a forward position. There is no "hammer". Also, I have never heard of a Glock discharging from being struck. It seems that this is physically impossible because the firing pin is not engaged until the trigger is pulled. The only thing that can send the firing pin to the primer is the striker which is activated by pulling the trigger all the way back.
Were the children in danger - from the round apparently still in the chamber - if they had pulled the trigger as it was being "passed around?"
Some can and some can not.
That is a manufacturer's design
If there was a round in the chamber most pistols will fire.
XeniaSt
NRA Certified Training/Counselor
Trainer of NRA Certified Instructor
Is this true? If so, these "cops" should be....well, I won't go there. This is the first I have heard of this.
I'm not at all suprised. These females should be deported to wherever they would rather be.
See post 200.
One of my favorite qoutes (Tommy Lee Jones -- Federal Marshalls)...."Get rid of that nickle-plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock!"
Specific answer for the Glock: yes, it will fire if you pull the trigger even without a magazine inserted. Yes, the children were put in mortal danger by this idiot
When I instruct novices, I demonstrate "Rule 1: guns are always loaded" by racking the slide to eject the chambered round (and incidently loading another round from the magazine), ejecting the mag, and then asking: "OK, now that I've unloaded it, may I now wave it around?". (Correct answer: "No, because guns are always loaded") I then pull the trigger (with the gun pointed toward the target), BANG, the novice jumps, and I explain what just happened, and how easy it is to have that happen when you're handling the gun while tired or distracted
It drives home the point of "Rule 1: guns are always loaded" really well
Last I heard, they were using .45 sidearms and 10mm MP-5s.
It drives home the point of "Rule 1: guns are always loaded" really well
430 posted on 2/7/02 10:19 AM Mountain by SauronOfMordor
I'm not sure where you learned to instruct novices in the safe use of firearms,
but I'm not familiar with your first rule.
The NRA has three Safety Rules for safe gun handling :
I would recommend that you take an NRA safe gun handling course.
Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
XeniaSt
NRA Certified Training/Counselor
A trainer of NRA Certified Instructors
Jeff Cooper (founder of Gunsite Academy):
The NRA has three Safety Rules for safe gun handling : I would recommend that you take an NRA safe gun handling course.The Rules of Firearms Safety.
Many shooting organizations promulgate incredibly long lists of safety rules. (I have seen posted lists of up to 20 rules!) They no doubt do this for political correctness, and to avoid litigation based on "You didn't tell me....," or to simply make them look impressive. However, one can insure safety with just four simple rules. (NRA please take note.)
Always remember, safety is a state of mind and not a device!
These four rules, if followed explicitly, will guarantee firearms safety. Memorize them and heed them. Always!
(1) All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."
(2) Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy. - If you are not willing to see a bullet hole in it do not allow a firearm's muzzle to point at it. This includes things like your foot, the TV, the refrigerator, the dog, or anything else that would cause general upset if a hole appeared in it..
(3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. - Danger abounds if you keep your finger on the trigger when you are not about to shoot. Speed is not gained by prematurely placing your finger on the trigger as bringing a firearm to bear on a target takes more time than it takes to move your finger to the trigger.
(4) Be sure of your target and what is behind it. - Never shoot at sounds or a target you cannot positively identify. Know what is in line with the target and what is behind it (bullets are designed to go through things). Be aware of your surroundings whether on a range, in the woods, or in a potentially lethal conflict.
The fifth, unwritten, but implied rule is: Take nothing for granted. Check everything by sight and touch.
Tragedies could be avoided if everyone involved with firearms followed these rules all the time.
I have taken the NRA course. And a number of other courses, including Ayoob's LFI-1 and LFI-2. The rules you cite are adequate for someone who only takes a gun to the range for target practice, but incomplete for someone who goes thru the day carrying concealed
My experience has been the opposite, the government is a moron, therefore the people need protected from government.
That seemed to be the intentions of the founders.
I hadn't thought of that. Are there aftermarket barrels that have better case head support? Any links would be appreciated. The only problem though is whether it would be IDPA legal. Probably.
The handling of firearms is no exception to this phenomenon and, IMO, should be addressed by all law enforcement agencies by in-service training and the creation and maintenance of a culture where constant caution and vigilance are emphasized in all aspects of The Job.
Given that a good many LEOs never discharge their weapons outside of the target range, the required frequent viewing of graphic training films -- including those in which the accidental shooting deaths of children are presented -- would do much to reduce the incidence of firearm-related tragedies.
Indeed, such in-service training should be completed on a regular basis by all who handle firearms, be they LEOs or not....
Were the children in danger - from the round apparently still in the chamber -Thanks again for the confirmation.
if they had pulled the trigger as it was being "passed around?"Specific answer for the Glock: yes, it will fire if you pull the trigger even without a magazine inserted. Yes, the children were put in mortal danger by this idiot.
If the facts are as we currently understand them, the FIRING of this officer is insufficient.
CRIMINAL PROSECUTION for gross negligence is absolutely necessary, IMHO.
All guns are always loaded always is a way of stating that one should always treat every gun as though it were loaded and ready to fire until one has the action open and verifying that the chamber is empty.
Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown
When I was home visiting, about a year and a half ago, this woman was the subject of a talk radio show, decrying the use of affirmative action in hiring police officers. The woman in question was an affirmative action twofer.
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