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Now That Bush Has Sold Us Out... What are we going to do about it? (vanity)

Posted on 03/13/2002 2:47:41 PM PST by Michael2001

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To: Howlin
The hell with the nay sayers! GOD BLESS PRESIDENT BUSH!
861 posted on 03/14/2002 1:39:22 PM PST by ruoflaw
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To: CaptBlack
What's so great about Medved? He's a walking encyclopedia of facts (witness his game show appearance at the tender age of 16), but he has an irrational hatred of Alan Keyes, third parties or anyone that disagrees with him on, well...ANYTHING and can't bring himself to criticize Republicans.

I've heard him criticize Republicans before. As for his "irrational hatred of Alan Keyes" (a mischaracterization and exaggeration, to be sure) and "third parties", as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is only enhanced by your description.

862 posted on 03/14/2002 1:39:39 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: Howlin
Thanks for posting that Howlin. All this whining is grating my nerves. I don't agree with everything President Bush does, but most of the time he shares my views. Our President is doing a great job and I admire him. You can't please all the people all the time.
863 posted on 03/14/2002 1:42:50 PM PST by deadhead
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To: Jim Robinson
If we had more parties, how would it be any different? Wouldn't the dependent masses continue to huddle in the most secure liberal parties? Wouldn't the Libertians, Reformers, Christian Right, right-wing conservatives, et al, still be outnumbered, and wouldn't this setup conditions for a complete socialist takeover?

What we have now is the GOPs nearly completely abandoning the Conservative ideology, losing all respect for our Constitution and competing with the Democrats to grow and empower the gov't as much as possible. And, while at it, faking some huge disagreements with their fellow Dems, claiming 'conservatism' for themselves and though their sheer well-funded weight, preventing any true freedom or Constitution-loving voice from being heard.

Several viable political groups would facilitate debate and would give the people the ability to more closely align themselves with the groups that best represent their view. The fact that 50% of our electorate doesn't vote could mean that many of those 50% can't find anyone to represent them or can't even imagine any alternative to the ever-growing daddy-knows-best state. I and many people that I know can't identify with either of these two political Mafias. I found a presidential candidate to vote for last time around but I knew he would not win long before the election started. Most of those who knew didn't waste their time.

Would it be 'different' if there were more political parties? Of course it would. The first visible difference: we would no longer have this ideological monopoly that suffocates most original political thought. How many original political thinkers are alive and producing today?

Would it be better? I personally don't know but enquiring minds would very much like to.

864 posted on 03/14/2002 1:44:49 PM PST by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: NC_Libertarian;Jim Robinson
First the Democrats are all but useless in opposing the Republicans in today's political climate, and second of all the stands they take are obvioulsy not pro-liberty but the contrary. So the situation remains where there is no one willing and able to make that stand. This is where the two party system is a huge failure.

This is not the fault of the two-party system, but of the voters that blindly support the RATS. The two-party power-sharing structute is the bedrock of our nation's political system; except for a roughly ten-year shakeout period just after the Constitution went into effect, the US has always been a two-party system. The two parties sharing power have changed over those 200 years, of course, but there have never been more than two. It's just the way the system turns out to best work, even if the Founders didn't realize that particular fact ahead of time.

The US will always be a two-party system. Hopefully, the Democrats will eventually screw up enough to fall completely out of power and either have the DNC taken over by people with an actual value system, or be completely replaced by a new party (which will not have anything to do with H. Ross Perot or Jesse Ventura). But in the end, there will still be only ever be two parties sharing power.

865 posted on 03/14/2002 2:02:51 PM PST by Timesink
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Well there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from creating a viable third or fourth or fifth party. All you have to do is come up with the greatest idea since sliced bread and then convince millions of people to abandon their old "mafia" parties and join up. Nothing to it. You'll have majority control over the Senate in no time and then you can change all the rules.
866 posted on 03/14/2002 2:08:24 PM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: deadhead
You can't please all the people all the time.

True, but don't you think he should uphold his oath of office and enforce the laws of this land? You and I can disagree on whether it is good policy to allow millions of people who came here illegally to remain. At least he is working to make that possible in some form of legal manner. But what about his NOT upholding campaign finance, bribery, blackmail, privacy and election laws (where democRATS are concerned)? What about his not upholding the laws against murder and mass murder (just because democRATS may have committed those crimes)? What about his not upholding the laws regarding national security and treason (which democRATS appear to have broken)? That is not something that we can just have a different opinion about. If you want to change those laws and not make those things a crime, go ahead ... but do it legally. Otherwise, you can go on expecting people like me to call Bush on it.

867 posted on 03/14/2002 2:26:14 PM PST by BeAChooser
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Would it be 'different' if there were more political parties? Of course it would. [...] Would it be better? I personally don't know but enquiring minds would very much like to.

I do know. It would not be better. See my response #865. The system set up by our Constitution pretty much demands a two-party power struggle to operate properly. The addition of truly powerful third, fourth or fifth parties would throw the entire government into disarray and gridlock. (Not that gridlock is always bad, but gridlock always IS bad.)

The first visible difference: we would no longer have this ideological monopoly that suffocates most original political thought. How many original political thinkers are alive and producing today?

A good point, but we have the First Amendment. There is no need for full national party structures to exist in order for people to come up with and distribute their political ideas. If they're any good, their ideas WILL be noticed. (For example, the Libertarians have a pretty decent national structure to get their ideas out, but 98% of the country still thinks their ideas are nuts when they are presented with them.)

868 posted on 03/14/2002 2:27:59 PM PST by Timesink
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To: BeAChooser
But what about his NOT upholding campaign finance, bribery, blackmail, privacy and election laws (where democRATS are concerned)? What about his not upholding the laws against murder and mass murder (just because democRATS may have committed those crimes)? What about his not upholding the laws regarding national security and treason (which democRATS appear to have broken)?

I'm not sure what you're getting out. The President is not the leader of the judicial branch. He can't just declare the Clintonoids "guilty" and have them locked up like a South American dictator.

869 posted on 03/14/2002 2:30:24 PM PST by Timesink
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To: Timesink
I'm not sure what you're getting out. The President is not the leader of the judicial branch. He can't just declare the Clintonoids "guilty" and have them locked up like a South American dictator.

Of course not, but surely you don't think that if Bush says "investigate", Ashcroft won't ... AND vice versa. Ultimately, the ONLY person now keeping the crimes committed those 8 dark years by the democRATS from being properly investigated is Bush. All I want is a PROPER investigation and all I hear the defenders of Bush and other "move-on"ers doing now is SPINNING ... just like Clinton's defender's did.

870 posted on 03/14/2002 2:41:15 PM PST by BeAChooser
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To: Jim Robinson
Well there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from creating a viable third or fourth or fifth party. All you have to do is come up with the greatest idea since sliced bread and then convince millions of people to abandon their old "mafia" parties and join up. Nothing to it. You'll have majority control over the Senate in no time and then you can change all the rules.

Not that easy to do, especially since the 2 Parties have arrogated the unConstitutional power to grant favors and preferences to their chosen groups in exchange for votes and money. Their ability to enact unConstitutional statutes is little different from the King permitting the peasants to bring their requests to their Master in exchange for property or service to the King. A good example of this lies in the way our illegal Tax Code functions. The Parties can submit legislation that gives a tax benefit or exemption to one American citizen (or group) at the expense of another American Citizen. Yet the Constitution mandates that all taxes be "uniform" and none can be based on one's productivity (income).

This is only one example, however. Because the government is allowed to operate unConstutitionally, it can operate as a King -- doling out favors, privileges, benefits, etc. Thus, to participate in the system, individuals and groups must organize and offer money, votes, and quid pro quo arrangements to their Party in order to be the beneficiary of the government's omnipotence.

Any new or principled Party, who might be reluctant to participate in this illegal and corrupt process would have little chance of making inroads into the existent power structure. There is no doubt, a power monopoly can oppress and even eliminate its competition. After all, that's what monopolies do.

871 posted on 03/14/2002 2:59:16 PM PST by BillofRights
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To: christine11
Nice font. Mind if I borrow it?
872 posted on 03/14/2002 4:44:56 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
not at all, cj, i'll just use this one! ;)
873 posted on 03/14/2002 5:55:38 PM PST by christine
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To: BillofRights
"Not that easy to do, especially since the 2 Parties have arrogated the unConstitutional power to grant favors and preferences to their chosen groups in exchange for votes and money."

Yeah, well, that was their greater than sliced bread idea. Now you gotta do them one better. Come up with a better idea, then get millions of people to join you and you've got a viable party. How else can you do it?

874 posted on 03/14/2002 6:31:07 PM PST by Jim Robinson
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Comment #875 Removed by Moderator

To: Jim Robinson
I don't have a solution, other than for millions and millions of citizens to stop, in unison, voting for the politicians in the 2 Parties of power. Yet, I don't believe that will happen. That is why I have indicated time and again that freedom, which most have never known, is now lost for us. It would take about 50 million Americans, who feel like I do, to save our liberty and our Constitutional Republic. I admit -- I'm in the minority on this and it ain't gonna happen. It's over!
876 posted on 03/14/2002 7:33:04 PM PST by BillofRights
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To: wasfree
What an excellent post! Your analogies and use of metaphor are perfect! Congratulations. You really get it!
877 posted on 03/14/2002 7:35:41 PM PST by BillofRights
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To: BeAChooser
Yes.

And; although I have very serious reservations about the Ron Brown theories; very fine in the abstract.

But what are you DOING?

Best ones -- Brian

878 posted on 03/14/2002 7:36:57 PM PST by Brian Allen
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To: wasfree
yes, i agree with billofrights--great post! you really drew a picture with your words!
879 posted on 03/14/2002 8:07:47 PM PST by christine
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To: BillofRights
You're much to pessimistic in your outlook on the future of liberty and freedom in this country. I suggest you check out this article ... Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty. The article's a bit dated, but its still relevant for the discussion about the prospects of liberty in America.
880 posted on 03/14/2002 8:27:41 PM PST by FBDinNJ
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