The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting:

Baltimore Sun ^ | 18 March 2002 | Gail Gibson, Michael James and Laura Barnhardt

[harpseal]

Ditto for an alleged ATF fatal shooting in Towson MD.

Now at this point I will call you out. I stated privately that I would post the specific references to this and I gave you a print reference which would have names and dates. You lying piece of filth. the fact that you did not choose to either wait for the online reference or look up the specific print reference does not give you a right to call me a or anyone else a liar.

Back up every one of your claims with specific referneces if you are such a hot shot. You claim a majority of the new recruits for the HRT are not former military spec ops. Please prove your point with a verifiable reference. You state you are always ready to back up your claims with immediate references.

I do not make the clkaim that I have every refertence handy for every factual incident in Amercan History that I will cite. No more than I could give an immediate refernce to the British attrocities at Fort Trumbull, CT can I give quick references to every incident in American History. History is defined as anything more than a month old.

So cite your reference for your factual claim about the make up of hostage recue teams and other special weapons and tactics units. Yoiu are the one who set the ground rules. I could simply rest on the fact I gave you a wayu to verify my staement about the Towson raid. I could also have cited a York PA raid where a cat was reportedly stomped to death by the ATF people as they were leaving. Yes, I will get that documentation also within the same two week period.

If you can not be a gentleman on these threads do not expect gentlemanly behavior in return. If you can not live with a reasonable time period for others to do research that you should have alre3ady done before posting we can not be responsible for your contumaceous ignorance.

Get a modicum of knowledge before you go accusing others of misrepresenting facts. Also it would be wise of you to review the posts of others before you go posting accusatory statements. If this is apparent of your attitude as a law enforcement officer you would be better in a Gestapo tyoe organixation than in any position in the USA where you operate under the color of law enforcement. There are number of present and former LEO's on these threads and they a base of knowledge of factual incidents you obviously lack although you should know of at least an incident that happened in your own state. Yet somebody from a couple states away is forced to do some research to prove a factual incident because you are too lazy to go to a public library and look up a past incident. No, I do not have access to archives of Maryland papers here in CT but I told you publicly and privately that a reference would be provided with a reasonable time. Given my rather full schedule it is a more than reasonable time. So before you state again that the Towson incident did not happen I suggest that you do your research yourself.

[brityank]

It wasn't buried anywhere.

From your #245: As I did not wish to subscribe to their service I am unable to provide ...

Prior to the settlement forced on Jim by the SLAPP suit by the WP and LAT; we were able to archive the stories here. I will not support their theft of our news [provided by our tax dollars by our 'employees'] and the history it is part of. The media corporations have eviscerated the First Amendment; as the political LEOs and their supplicants are eviscerating the Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth.

Unless that gun fired itself or the round cooked off, the shooting was not an accident; it was a violation of procedure by a grandstanding punk. Your support for him, and unwarranted aspersions to others on this thread tells me all I need to know about your socialist tendencies.

[harpseal]

The following is a link to a reference regarding the BATF incident in Maryland I was reffering too.

http://elfie.org/~croaker/individ.html#DETROIT

[Lloyd227]

Thanks harpseal, this looks interesting to say the least.

Best regards,
Lloyd

[harpseal]

I am certain many other links can be found and a library search would yoeld more articles. However, if OTH wants more documentation I charge $100/hr to do others historical research and fact checking. He now has some basis for looking up an incident that should give him a lot to think about. It is not an easy thing being a law enforcement officer and we need the best and the brightest in that job because in many ways that is the cutting edge about when and of we degenerate into tyranny. Now the simple fact is if a local law enforcement team made as many screw ups as the FBI did they owuld not be simply exhonorated due to prosecutorial discretion they would have faced a federal indictment for the negligence in not using proper felony stop procedures (supposedly standard procedure after the Platt Matix shootout in FL) in making the stop of the eagle scout and agent Braga would not have been in position to have his rifle fire wounding the young man in the face.

With the name and the date additional verification searches can be done. He has those now.

[harpseal]

I did some searching to get the name and date. The date of the incident was admittedly unsure in my posts. you have the information you need to inform yourself of a precedent raid within your area of operations. We shall now see how honest you really are. If you really are a law enforcement officer we will also get some very good ideas of what type of law officer you are.

I really do hope you are not some power mad psycho wearing a badge because it lets you exercise authority over others but I guess we shall have to wait and see.

[harpseal]

I did a quick google search to get OTA a reference and I guess we shall see if we have a Jack Booted Thug or a real person who just did not have a whole lot of knowledge about what's gone on in the past.

[harpseal]

Remember the case of Donald G. Arnold, Maryland's "Citizen Of The Year" who had all his guns confiscated just LAST YEAR because of a misdemeanor assault conviction stemming from a barfight THIRTY YEARS AGO:

[Travis McGee]

Sooner or later our armed federal agents are going to have to ask themselves if they are going to uphold their sworn oaths to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC, or if they are going to be the traitors themselves, and follow illegal orders to strip honest loyal Americans of their rights.

[Rebelbase]

Dude, you are violating your own paragraph #3.

[Rebelbase]

"I don't think the nation has been this dangerously split since 1860."

Mmmm...I don't know about that. IMO, those who fear the abuse of Federal authority are in the minority.

The more I talk with people about things like this, the more I am convinced that the majority of our society are the duller knives in the drawer.

They are sheep, following the media shepperd from one fantasy pasture to another.

Just look at the magazine racks at the grocery store. That is where Joe and Jane Blow get their news about what is important. For the most part the teasers read: ....."10 sex secrets that will drive your mate wild", "Fat Free Fun", "Brittany and Justin's Hot Date", etc. etc.

The bulk of society does'nt want to contemplate the potential nastiness that a loss of constitutional rights will entail. They want safety and perceive LEOs as offering that safety: "they will be there for us", "we don't need a gun", "that is what the police are for".

The constitution of the United States of America is a dusty old piece of paper as far as these people are concerned.

With a few exceptions, the outlying, rural areas are the only places I've managed to meet a few "reloaders" and other types who are preparing for the coming storm. The exceptions are several liberal types who see Patriot Act for what it is, but they have essentially nuetered themselves with passifism and will fold in with the rest of the sheep when the time comes.

[Travis McGee]

I agree with your overall assessment and numbers. We are not the majority, Sheeple Nation is.

But we are motivated, armed, and have the Constitution as a bedrock to anchor us.

I've come up with a "social plate tectonics" analogy, where most of our country is in a slow, steady, powerful socialist drift. Sooner or later there is going to be a rupture, a crack where the bedrock constitutionalists will say NO MORE!

That may arrive at the point of gun confiscation over 30 year old misdemeanors, when the JBTs are getting ultra-legalistic to devise strategems for civilian disarmament, while blatantly in-our-faces ignoring squatter villages of illegal criminal invaders.

[harpseal]

I did not see the evidence presented to the Grand Jury but I am quite aware that any good attorney can to use a very famous quote indict a ham sandwich. By only presenting some of the evidence and not presenting enough evidence certainly the grand jury can come back with no true bill but that does not mean there was not enough evidence to indictr only that a prosecutor choose the evidence presented to avoid an indictment. Is this the case here I surely do not know. But I do know the agents did not follow standard procedure for the stop and a young man was severely injured. Such situations call for a petit jury trial.

[Lloyd227]

Understood. Since I wasn't there however, I was trying to avoid assuming that the prosecutor sabotaged the grand jury proceedings.

Judging by what I read in the papers, Mr. Braga, at minimum, should have been charged with negligent discharge of a firearm. Given the running argument with OTA, I just wanted to back out though.

Can't be everywhere and know everything and just have to let things go sometimes. The grand jury should have had access to the same newspaper stories we did. Can't explain how they failed to charge that thug with SOMETHING, but the fact is, they didn't charge him.

Just have to make a note of Mr. Braga's name and wait.

[OTA]

Thanks for the research. Seems to be a long way and a long time from Towson in the 1990's. Interestingly enough that it happened in 1971, and the BATF was not established as the BATF until 1972. No name either.

Anyway, I'm glad narrowed it down Harpseal. Keep up the good work. I knew that it didn't occur where and when you initially stated as Towson has been in my area of responsibility since 1989, and I had never heard of such an incident.

As for the psycho bit, I don't really qualify. My wife has alluded to it from time to time but only during an arguments and not in relation to work............lol.

Regards: OTA

[OTA]

True it would be interesting to see but the proceedings are kept secret in Maryland as they are elsewhere. But if a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich why did the AA County States Attorney fail to get an inditment?

My guess is not enough probable cause. Like it or not that's what the Constitution requires.

Grand Juries in Maryland have subpoena power as well and can require the appearance of anyone they wish to call. Don't count out the collective intelligence of the citizenry charged with investigation of this matter. Sort of tough to include a grand jury in a whitewash.

[harpseal]

ATF was the original name and the B was added in 1972. The fact this happened in your area of responsibility should make you even more aware of it. Clearly there have not been major reforms put through the ATF as the same site has numerous more recent examples. I stated originally that there was an incident in Towson Maryland and I was not sure of the year. I never specifically claimed that it was in the 1990's but that checkingf through the furor over the discussion of Jack Booted thugs in the 1990's would yield the name and other specifics.

An innocent man paralyzed is not a joking matter and tends to be a very significant result at least to the paralyzed person and his family.

I ask you now about the Maryland man who was deprived of his civil rights that was cited more recently. If ordered to go seize any guns he possessed would you carry out that order? Knowing the facts of the case as stated. Would you do it? If the answer is yes I then refer you to the Nuremburg and Andersonville precedents of people following orders who faced punishment for following orders after a major political change.

By the way when I first posted this I was not absolutely certain of the Towson location only that it was somewhere arround there in Baltimore County.

What we are talking about is thirty year old charges that did were not subject to loss of civil rights at the time the person may have plea bargained.

What happens if subsequently driving at a speed over a specified limit becomes an offense that results in a loss of civil liberties? Would you enforce that? Remember disorderly conduct used to have a maximum under a year and usually is treated as a violation not even a misdemaenor in most juridictions.

A more likely case is Operating Under the Influence of alchohol becoming punishable by more than a year in jail or alternatively an implied consent violation being treated that way. In some states that has already been proposed for repeat offenders, but I am not talking about repeat offenders I am talking about the one time for a person over the .08 limit. How about if asd MAD has proposed they drop the limit down to where one beer with dinner causes one to be over the limit (.03) and in some case it has been proposed .01, what about then?

At this point, I am still more than a tad upset about your commenting on the case before I had a chance to do the research. I am further upset about your questioning the specifics of that case with discussing the fact that the FBI in the Braga case did not use proper felony stop procedures as supposedly all agents were ordered to do with any suspect they presume might be armed.

You have stated that you are a Maryland LEO. If you were involved in a stop of someone who you reasonably believed was armed would you just walk up to the car pointing a rifle with your finger on the trigger? I belive you would take a position where you could keep the occupants in view and order them to exit the vehicle carefully. Have subjects reach out the window to open the door from the outside? If you did not follow proper felony stop procedure and someone was shot would you not expect to be hung out to dry and be facing criminal charges?

[OTA]

"Remember the case of Donald G. Arnold, Maryland's "Citizen Of The Year" who had all his guns confiscated just LAST YEAR because of a misdemeanor assault conviction stemming from a barfight THIRTY YEARS AGO:"

I have read, at length, articles on the link you posted. I have also read numerous additional commentary I found concerning Mr. Arnold. There is NO mention of any firearms being seized from Mr. Arnold. The articles refer to Mr. Arnold being refused a carry permit which he needed for his job as a security guard. Please look here, the latest commentary I could find on the subject:

http://www.gunowners.org/op0226.htm

Wherein this quote can be found:

"On two occasions Maryland's Handgun Permit Review Board (HPRB) has ruled against Curran and for giving Arnold his handgun permit restricting the use of his weapon to the time while he is "actively engaged" on his job and in Maryland only."

Please note that "Curran" refers to Joe Curran, the Maryland State AG.

It appears that, as far as I can understand from the commentary, that Mr. Arnold is allowed to carry a firearm on his job.

The firearms seized from an individual in Maryland refers to the case of Larry Dickens, a synopsis of which can be found here:

www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/5583

According to the commentary, Mr. Dickens had ammassed an impressive record of convictions for being unable to control his temper or keep his hands off others. Lets review:

1. 1983 - Assault
2. 1980 to 1983 - Two (2) assault and battery.
3. 1980 to 1983 - Two (2) additional assaults.

Sounds like the kind of chap I would want living next to me with firearms, don't ya think? Perhaps we should wait until he decides to pick up his firearm when he has another pissing contest with someone and gets his ass kicked. Happens quite a bit these days. Poor man just can't seem to contol his temper.

I hope this post helps clear up your obvious confusion over the facts of these two cases. Your post combined these two distinct situations into one.

Regards: OTA

[OTA]

Let me try to answer the latest myriad of questions you pose.

1.)"ATF was the original name and the B was added in 1972. The fact this happened in your area of responsibility should make you even more aware of it."

I am confused....the fact that the B was added in 1972 and was in my "area of responsibility" should make me more aware of it? I don't understand that statement. Complete sentences with a subject are easier for me to understand. If you are referring to the Maryland Man shot in 1971....the State of Maryland is not as large as say, Texas, I do not know where this incident happened. Do You? The article you linked to mentions simply "Maryland". Not every 30 year old case is known in detail to every LEO in Maryland. Sorry, but I was 9 years old at the time and lived over 400 miles from the state line. My interests didn't extend to reading out of state newspapers at that age. As for the ubiquitous alleged "Killing" by ATF in Towson I await your research.

2.) "An innocent man paralyzed is not a joking matter and tends to be a very significant result at least to the paralyzed person and his family."

I fail to see where any of my posts have made light of that incident. Perhaps you could be more specific.

3.) "I ask you now about the Maryland man who was deprived of his civil rights that was cited more recently. If ordered to go seize any guns he possessed would you carry out that order? Knowing the facts of the case as stated. Would you do it? If the answer is yes I then refer you to the Nuremburg and Andersonville precedents of people following orders who faced punishment for following orders after a major political change."

Please see my pervious reply to you regarding Mssrs. Arnold and Dickens. As you seem confused over the "facts as stated"
I am unsure as to which incident you refer to.

4.) "By the way when I first posted this I was not absolutely certain of the Towson location only that it was somewhere arround there in Baltimore County."

Again, which incident do you refer to? The location of the 1971 incident has not been found by either you or myself. Or do you again refer to the alleged killing by ATF in Towson? It daily gains momentum as a free republic urban legend. I await the results of your research.

5.) "What we are talking about is thirty year old charges that did were not subject to loss of civil rights at the time the person may have plea bargained."

Rule #1.... if you are charged with a crime GET A LAWYER! You know, if you can't afford a lawyer one will be provided at no cost to you (pass it on). Mr. Arnold's 1969 placed him in violation of 18 USC 922(g)(1), part of the gun control act of 1968. He has been prohibited, under federal law, since the date of his plea (entered into without a lawyer).

6.) What happens if subsequently driving at a speed over a specified limit becomes an offense that results in a loss of civil liberties? Would you enforce that? Remember disorderly conduct used to have a maximum under a year and usually is treated as a violation not even a misdemaenor in most juridictions. A more likely case is Operating Under the Influence of alchohol becoming punishable by more than a year in jail or alternatively an implied consent violation being treated that way. In some states that has already been proposed for repeat offenders, but I am not talking about repeat offenders I am talking about the one time for a person over the .08 limit. How about if asd MAD has proposed they drop the limit down to where one beer with dinner causes one to be over the limit (.03) and in some case it has been proposed .01, what about then?

Harpseal you are quite good at posing hypotheticals. I am not a lawyer. It's not a cop out (no pun intended), but I don't have an answer for you. If it's a prohibiting conviction I presume that the answer would be the same as my reply to #5.

7.) "At this point, I am still more than a tad upset about your commenting on the case before I had a chance to do the research. I am further upset about your questioning the specifics of that case with discussing the fact that the FBI in the Braga case did not use proper felony stop procedures as supposedly all agents were ordered to do with any suspect they presume might be armed."

First, sorry about your ruffled feathers, you should develop a thicker skin. It's very helpful to possess one here.
As for the felony stop prceedures, or lack of same, followed in the Braga / Shultz shooting please note that violation of departmental procedure is not a crime. Check the Constitution. I agree with you that it contributed to the events as they unfolded but again, the simple fact that proceedures are or are not followed does not prove guilt or innocence.


8.) "You have stated that you are a Maryland LEO. If you were involved in a stop of someone who you reasonably believed was armed would you just walk up to the car pointing a rifle with your finger on the trigger? I belive you would take a position where you could keep the occupants in view and order them to exit the vehicle carefully. Have subjects reach out the window to open the door from the outside? If you did not follow proper felony stop procedure and someone was shot would you not expect to be hung out to dry and be facing criminal charges?"

I believe it would be beneficial at some point in the future that you take the opportunity to do a ride along with an average street cop. Ask for a precinct or sector with a high volume of violent crime. Read a binder or two of the department's general orders. Check and see if the officer has the general orders memorized and see if he correctly applies them in every situation you and he respond to that night. See if the situations all unfold "by the book".

I have been involved in many felony car stops, with armed individuals in the vehicle. Sometimes they stop right away, often the don't. Sometimes they get out of the car, sometimes they don't. If I always followed your apparent definition of "proper proceedure" I'd still be out there waiting for the bad guys to comply.

Since you are an afficiando of hyportheticals here is one for you:

Maybe when the bad guys finally decide to comply and pull over they've pulled up next to a school playground at recess or a supermarket parking lot. Should I call set up a perimiter and call for a hostage negotiator as I see him slap a magazine into his Mini-14? I really don't expect an answer but I hope you see my point.

I have approached vehicles following a stops with my weapon drawn, for example once following a shooting from a vehicle and once when three known armed individuals were on their way to shoot a rival drug dealer. They did not comply with numerous commands to play nice and exit the vehicle, open the door from the outside etc. In the case with the three individuals they finally stopped on a three lane highway when traffic came to a standstill. Traffic had stopped due to an accident that had happened moments before and without their or my knowledge. I doubt that the innocent motorists stuck sitting next to three armed individuals would have appreciated my calls for the SWAT team and the hostage negotiator who would have been stuck futher back behind me in the same traffic. Calling them out would have presented the possibilty of a hostage, a carjacking, or another innocent person being shot in and exchange of gunfire.

I have not seen, in any account, that SA Braga approached the vehicle with his finger "on the trigger". Have you? My training has always been to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. I'm resonably sure that that is somewhat standard for firearms training in the LEO community.

My point here Harpseal is twofold. "Proper proceedure" does not cover each and every situation. They don't always unfold in real life like you see on TV. I was not at the shooting of Mr. Shultz that night but I still believe that SA Braga would not have shot had he not sensed a threat (correctly or apparently, incorrectly). From accounts I read in the Baltimore Sun Mr. Shultz may have been unbuckling a seatbelt in respose to the agents commands. If SA Braga saw a seatbelt in Mr. Shultz's hands as he brought it up from his lap he may have mistaken a chrome plated buckle for a firearm in the dim light. Not making excuses here, just presenting food for thought.

Secondly If I did not follow proper proceedure and shot at, and killed an armed individual who pointed a firearm at me, I would not expect to be brought up on criminal charges. Would you?

However if I continually presented facts in court as loosely and as imprecisely as you present them here I would expect at least a finding of no crediblity by a judge or jury....at the worst perhaps a charge of perjury. But obviously nobody here has to present facts under oath. So why should anyone worry about being precise?


Regards: OTA

[OTA]

I agree with you. If the situation resulted in an indictment it surely would call for a petit jury trial. But..................