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Researchers Uncover Brain Patterns That Differentiate Humans From Chimpanzees
University of California, San Diego ^ | April 11, 2002 | Staff

Posted on 04/11/2002 3:27:46 PM PDT by Nebullis

A team of international researchers from Germany, the Netherlands and San Diego may have shed light on why chimps and humans are so genetically similar (nearly 99 percent of shared DNA sequences), and yet so mentally different.

In a study published in the April 12, 2002 issue of the journal Science, the scientists noted that the striking difference between these primate cousins is most evident in their brains. The disparity appears to be the result of evolutionary differences in gene and protein expression, the manner in which coded information in genes is activated in the brain, then converted into proteins that carry out many cellular functions.

The brain differences are more a matter of quantity than quality. Differences in the amount of gene and protein expression, rather than differences in the structure of the genes or proteins themselves, distinguish the two species.

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TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; primateevolution
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1 posted on 04/11/2002 3:27:46 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: crevo_list
Bump
2 posted on 04/11/2002 3:28:28 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
So I guess we can soon expect a Newsweek cover story saying, "Humans and Chimpanzees are Different"...sorta like their old story back in the 80's declaring men and women different.
3 posted on 04/11/2002 3:30:17 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: Nebullis
Jocelyn Elder's brain was obviously an exception to this study.
4 posted on 04/11/2002 3:33:33 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: crevo_list
Bump.
5 posted on 04/11/2002 3:38:34 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Nebullis
Proteus (the greatest ape of all) proved that Man cannot be domesticated.
6 posted on 04/11/2002 3:40:29 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Nebullis
They might be on the right track. perhaps it's not the genome that makes the difference. A Neanderthal man was more like us than the chimps are, but his DNA was more different than ours.

Astrobiologist Keith Cowing says there are "organisms whose genome can be blown apart by massive doses of radiation only to reassemble it a short time later". If I understand that rightly, is the DNA the cause or is it an effect of our characteristics? We might have had it backwards since that pea plant heredity experiment.

7 posted on 04/11/2002 3:41:45 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale

8 posted on 04/11/2002 4:23:04 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: Nebullis
A team of international researchers from Germany, the Netherlands and San Diego may have shed light on why chimps and humans are so genetically similar (nearly 99 percent of shared DNA sequences), and yet so mentally different.

Too bad more people don't keep it in mind that it's the difference that makes the difference. In terms of functionally equivalent parts a Corvair and a Mercedes are virtually identical.
9 posted on 04/11/2002 4:30:57 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Nebullis
Don't know why you did not post the whole article, it does not seem to be from a place where we are not supposed to post whole articles from. The article is too good for just a couple of paragraphs:

Researchers Uncover Brain Patterns That Differentiate Humans From Chimpanzees

A team of international researchers from Germany, the Netherlands and San Diego may have shed light on why chimps and humans are so genetically similar (nearly 99 percent of shared DNA sequences), and yet so mentally different.

In a study published in the April 12, 2002 issue of the journal Science, the scientists noted that the striking difference between these primate cousins is most evident in their brains. The disparity appears to be the result of evolutionary differences in gene and protein expression, the manner in which coded information in genes is activated in the brain, then converted into proteins that carry out many cellular functions.

The brain differences are more a matter of quantity than quality. Differences in the amount of gene and protein expression, rather than differences in the structure of the genes or proteins themselves, distinguish the two species.

In addition, the researchers noted that the manner in which genes are expressed from the brain shows more differences than other parts of the two primates' bodies, such as the liver and white blood cells. Why these evolutionary differences occurred is still unknown.

The researchers first compared blood and liver samples for levels of messenger RNA, an intermediary step between DNA and protein production. As expected, they found humans were closer to chimps in these measures than chimps were to macaque monkeys.

In striking contrast, the human brain showed more messenger RNA differences when compared to the chimp brain, indicating a far greater rate of evolutionary change in gene expression. Moreover, chimpanzee and macaque gene expression patterns were more similar to each other than to the human pattern. The researchers also found unique differences in expression of proteins in the human brain. Thus, humans seem to have sped up the rate of change of gene expression selectively in their brains, accumulating expression differences at least five times faster than chimpanzees.

The study was a collaborative effort of investigators in Europe with two researchers from the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine and the VA San Diego Healthcare System. Senior author Svante Pääbo and first authors Wolfgang Enard and Philipp Khaltovich are with the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.

Ajit Varki, M.D.

"With an understanding of the differences between humans and chimpanzees, we may be able to learn more about the genetics underlying diseases that seem to harm humans but not chimpanzees," said Ajit Varki, M.D., UCSD professor of medicine and cellular and molecular medicine, director of the UCSD Glycobiology Research and Training Center, and one of the paper's authors.

He noted that several diseases seem to differ in frequency and severity between chimps and humans, including AIDS, Alzheimer's, cancer and malaria. For example, chimps get infected with HIV, but almost never get AIDS and get only a mild form of malaria, even when injected with an often deadly form of the human parasite.

Varki's colleague, Elaine Muchmore, M.D., a hematologist and genetic researcher with VA San Diego Healthcare System and a UCSD professor of medicine, said the study also points out that the differences between humans and chimps are a lot more complicated and extensive than some researchers had previously thought.

"There are many people who have spoken out about the differences, but they have really oversimplified things," she said. "The human brain is a very, very complicated organ and this study validates that."

In landmark papers published in 1998 by Varki and Muchmore, the two reported on the first known biochemical and genetic difference between people and chimps ? a missing oxygen atom in humans, in a cell-surface carbohydrate molecule called sialic acid. Since then, the Varki group has published discovery of a second genetic difference and have found additional, as yet unpublished, variances involving sialic acid biology.

For the current study published in Science, Varki and Muchmore provided and analyzed RNA samples from white blood cells and from liver and brain tissue of chimps and other primates that had died of natural causes at the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta.

Their European colleagues searched for human vs. chimp differences by using gene chips carrying tiny dabs of DNA derived from about 18,000 human genes. The chi[m]p DNA interacted with genetic material purified from brain and liver tissue collected from humans and non-human primates (including chimpanzees and macaque monkeys), allowing the researchers to measure and compare the levels of expression of each of the genes in each of the species.

The comparative data suggest that during the evolutionary process, humans somehow altered the process of gene expression in their brains, accumulating expression differences at least five times faster than chimpanzees and distancing themselves from their nearest cousin. A similar trend appeared when the scientists examined differences in brain protein levels.

To determine if the differences between humans and chimps were indeed more than expected between such closely related species, the researchers also analyzed gene and protein expression in two mouse species that are about as genetically different from to each other as humans are to chimps. They found fewer differences in gene expression levels among the mice, further suggesting that the human/chimp discrepancy marks a special evolutionary process.

"I have now been asked by the German group to help them sort out the large number of differences they found in this study," Varki said. "Using my medical background, I hope to provide some insight into which of these differences might be best for further study. These results also provide support for my efforts to encourage the initiation of a chimpanzee genome project."

Other members of the research team include Sebastian Zöllner, Florian Heissig and Philipp Khaitovich, Max-Planck-Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany; Joachim Klose, Institut fuer Humangenetik Charité, Berlin, Germany; Patrick Giavalisco, Max-Planck-Institute for Molecular Genetics, Berlin, Germany; Kay Nieselt-Struwe, Mas-Planck-Institute of Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen, Germany; Rivka Ravid, The Netherlands Brain Bank, Amsterdam; and Gaby M. Doxiadis and Ronald E. Bontrop, Biomedical Primate Research Centre, Rijswijk, The Netherlands.

Most funding came from the Bundesministerium fur Bildung und Forschung and the Max Planck Gesellschaft. The work at UCSD and the VA was supported by a grant from the G. Harold and Leila Y. Mathers Charitable Foundation of New York.

# # #

UCSD Health Sciences Communications HealthBeat: http://health.ucsd.edu/news/

10 posted on 04/11/2002 4:44:25 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Nebullis
I wonder how much of our tax money it took for them to figure out that people are different from chimps?
11 posted on 04/11/2002 4:50:40 PM PDT by Rule of Law
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To: Nebullis
From the full article:

In striking contrast, the human brain showed more messenger RNA differences when compared to the chimp brain, indicating a far greater rate of evolutionary change in gene expression. Moreover, chimpanzee and macaque gene expression patterns were more similar to each other than to the human pattern. The researchers also found unique differences in expression of proteins in the human brain. Thus, humans seem to have sped up the rate of change of gene expression selectively in their brains, accumulating expression differences at least five times faster than chimpanzees.

One really must wonder how a scientist who was so intelligent as to conceive of and perform this study could say the above. How does one selectively change one's brain? Is he implying that pre-humans had the knowledge to do such a thing? Or is this a half-hearted attempt by these scientists to kneepad themselves before the demi-god Darwin?

12 posted on 04/11/2002 4:52:44 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Nebullis
So I don't think the same as a chimp. Finally, some proof I can give my wife.
13 posted on 04/11/2002 4:55:52 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Nebullis

14 posted on 04/11/2002 4:56:19 PM PDT by lowbridge
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To: gcruse
I'm sure our simian cousins are breathing a sigh of relief.
15 posted on 04/11/2002 4:56:50 PM PDT by billorites
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To: billorites
DNA = Dough Nut. Aaaahhhhh.
16 posted on 04/11/2002 5:04:42 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: lowbridge
Oh, yeah, baby!
17 posted on 04/11/2002 5:10:58 PM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: aruanan
Corvair and a Mercedes are virtually identical.

I think I'd say a Chevy II or Vega and a Mercedes, the Corvair was pretty wierd, but fun to drive, actually functionally much like a VW Beetle, which is what it was trying to compete with.

18 posted on 04/11/2002 5:49:59 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: gore3000
One really must wonder how a scientist who was so intelligent as to conceive of and perform this study could say the above. How does one selectively change one's brain? Is he implying that pre-humans had the knowledge to do such a thing? Or is this a half-hearted attempt by these scientists to kneepad themselves before the demi-god Darwin

Probably just bad grammer. He should have said that "the rate of change...of humans was sped up" rather than implying that the humans did it conciously. The way it is stated would actually be anti-darwinian, since Darwinism relies on random mutatations and differences between individuals interacting with environmental changes to selectively cause greater survival of animals (or plants) carrying those characteristics. Sort of like selective breeding, but with Nature as the breeder, selecting those traits best suited to survival in new environments.

19 posted on 04/11/2002 5:55:20 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Nebullis
the scientists noted that the striking difference between these primate cousins is most evident in their brains.

And this conclusion cost how much?

20 posted on 04/11/2002 5:57:13 PM PDT by FairWitness
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To: Rule of Law
Amazing what can be deduced from a little trace of scat.
21 posted on 04/11/2002 6:00:19 PM PDT by Cvengr
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To: Nebullis
In landmark papers published in 1998 by Varki and Muchmore, the two reported on the first known biochemical and genetic difference between people and chimps ? a missing oxygen atom in humans, in a cell-surface carbohydrate molecule called sialic acid.

Very poorly written. Many sequence differences were obviously known before 1998.

22 posted on 04/11/2002 6:06:50 PM PDT by FairWitness
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To: RightWhale
If I understand that rightly, is the DNA the cause or is it an effect of our characteristics?

It's both. DNA has, simply, been in the public spotlight because of the genome project. The emphasis on actual expression is much more difficult. The field of interdisciplinary fields of proteomics and bioinformatics have been underway for over a decade and some fields of biology, like development have always had a greater emphasis on expression. It's all related, one simply can't be separated from the other.

One variously sees articles pop up, like "The gene is dead, long live the gene."

23 posted on 04/11/2002 6:30:28 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: El Gato
Probably just bad grammer. He should have said that "the rate of change...of humans was sped up" rather than implying that the humans did it conciously. The way it is stated would actually be anti-darwinian,

It is more than bad grammar. It is trying to bow to Darwinism but not having the vaguest idea of how to explain the experiment in Darwinian terms. Or perhaps he was making it obvious that the experiment was a disproof of Darwinism while letting the yokels who supervise and pay their bills think that they were abiding by the party line. I really hate to think that people who could do such work could be so stupid as to make such a statement - in writing yet, for a published journal.

24 posted on 04/11/2002 6:56:57 PM PDT by gore3000
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Nebullis
One variously sees articles pop up, like "The gene is dead, long live the gene."

Well, no doubt man is a material being and there needs to be a material basis for the operation of his faculties. However, the alteration of genetic behavior according to particular circumstances and environmental cues, seems totally anti-Darwinian. Also the uniqueness of these actions in humans seems to show a break with what evolution would predict. While the researchers try to tow the party line and say this is merely a difference of degree, not of quality, the opposite seems to be the case.

27 posted on 04/11/2002 7:21:31 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Nebullis
the scientists noted that the striking difference between these primate cousins is most evident in their brains

No sh!t, sherlock.

28 posted on 04/11/2002 7:25:59 PM PDT by krb
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To: Rule of Law
I wonder how much of our tax money it took for them to figure out that people are different from chimps?

What part of "Most funding came from the Bundesministerium fur Bildung und Forschung and the Max Planck Gesellschaft. The work at UCSD and the VA was supported by a grant from the G. Harold and Leila Y. Mathers Charitable Foundation of New York." didn't you understand?

29 posted on 04/11/2002 7:26:18 PM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: Nebullis
fields of proteomics and bioinformatics have been underway for over a decade

Yeah, well I've been working on this for 2 days now, probably 15 minutes total, and I've already discovered 2 new words, neither of which I know what it means. :)

30 posted on 04/11/2002 7:32:20 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: RadioAstronomer, Scully, jennyp, blam, edwin_hubble, edsheppa, general_re, VadeRetro, Hajman, And
FYI
31 posted on 04/11/2002 7:35:36 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Nick Danger
What part of "

What part of man is a unique species and it has been known by all (except Darwinists) for a long time do you not understand?

32 posted on 04/11/2002 7:38:56 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: RightWhale
It's the new frontier!
33 posted on 04/11/2002 7:42:15 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
Thanks for the ping!
34 posted on 04/11/2002 8:07:07 PM PDT by Scully
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To: longshadow; PatrickHenry; Physicist; ThinkPlease; blam; Sabertooth; boris; VadeRetro; Stultis...
Bump to RadioAstronomer's list!
35 posted on 04/11/2002 8:09:02 PM PDT by Scully
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To: Nebullis
"The human brain is a very, very complicated organ and this study validates that."

Thanks for the posting and notification. Sometimes I wonder though. At the moment I believe it can be safely stated that the human brain is the most complicated object known. It dreams of dreams.

36 posted on 04/11/2002 8:17:14 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Nebullis
Humanity: its all in the mind

Human Genome Meeting,
Edinburgh, April 2001

Humanity: its all in the mind

Genetic activity in the brain gives us the edge over chimps.
24 April 2001

HELEN PEARSON

A human skull (top) houses more gene activity than does a chimp skull (bottom)
© D. Roberts / SPL

The difference between chimps and humans is all in the mind. It is differences in our brain's gene activity that really sets us apart from chimps, delegates at the Human Genome Meeting in Edinburgh, Scotland, heard this week.

"I'm interested in what makes me human," explains Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. After sequencing 3 million letters of the chimp genome and comparing them with the human draft, his group reasoned that DNA sequence can't be it: only 1.3% of letters are different.

So using tiny 'gene chips' with 20,000 human genes dotted on them, they measured the levels of gene activity, or 'transcription', in our brain, liver and blood. They compared these transcription snapshots -- the 'transcriptome' -- with similar snapshots of our close relative the chimp and an evolutionarily more distant relative, the rhesus macaque monkey.

"Liver and blood reflect how the species are related," Pääbo found. In these tissues, as expected, the human gene activity pattern was pretty similar to that of the chimp, and different from the macaque.

The brain showed a different picture: chimp and human transcription patterns are poles apart. "The [human] brain has accelerated usage of genes," explains Paabo.

The genomes of all mammals are so similar that "it's hard to understand how they can produce such different animals", says Sue Povey, who works on human gene mapping at University College London in England. If their genes are alike, it's probably changes in when, where and how active they are that drives the differences between species, she agrees.

37 posted on 04/11/2002 8:36:31 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
so who designed the modern humans???
are these the same that have being watching for hundreds of years??
38 posted on 04/11/2002 8:59:02 PM PDT by green team 1999
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To: gore3000
What part of man is a unique species and

This is the first time I have ever been invited to participate in a religious argument about tax dollars. I think I'll pass.

39 posted on 04/11/2002 9:53:47 PM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: green team 1999
so who designed the modern humans???

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.

Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.


40 posted on 04/11/2002 11:05:51 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Scully
Lurking...
41 posted on 04/12/2002 4:06:34 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: gore3000
How does one selectively change one's brain?

One does not change one's own brain. But one can improve the brain of his children be selecting the smartest mate.

The article implies that intelligence in humans serves as an attractant, like the plumage on the birds of paradise.

42 posted on 04/12/2002 5:15:45 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
One does not change one's own brain. But one can improve the brain of his children be selecting the smartest mate.

Blinded by the ideology. That is why evolution is so bad, it is stupifying. It keeps people from seeing what is truly amazing. The fact is that no other species performed the same transformation. The same could have/should/have happened with other species but it did not.

Further, humans are far different from all other species. It is the only species that has art. The differences between humans and chimps are not just of degree, but of quality.

43 posted on 04/12/2002 5:40:45 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Nick Danger
This is the first time I have ever been invited to participate in a religious argument about tax dollars.

You are completely misrepresenting my statement. I said man is unique and we have known so for a long time. It is not a religious argument and it is not about tax dollars. This study verifies how unique man is.

44 posted on 04/12/2002 5:46:20 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: js1138
The article implies that intelligence in humans serves as an attractant,

I don't know how that can be determined when the article itself states---

Why these evolutionary differences occurred is still unknown.

45 posted on 04/12/2002 6:42:07 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Nebullis
gee, first men and women are different, and now apes are different from humans. a dog is not a cat, either. who knew.
46 posted on 04/12/2002 6:45:20 AM PDT by galt-jw
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To: Nebullis; gore3000
A Reuters story on this study has this very interesting statement:

"They found five times as many changes in gene expression -- actual activity by the genes -- in the human brain than would be predicted by evolution."

[NOTE: - If that characterization of the study is accurate, then consider this; here is a finding by Varki and Paabo of an Institute where they are PAID to look for evidence supporting the theory - which is what they were looking for - but found the opposite. I find it interesting that where any hint of a notion that there might be the slightest possiblility that perhaps evolution from one species to another might not have taken place is completely and utterly unthinkable, the automatic reaction to data that shows the opposite of what is being sought (evidence of evolution) is not to re-examine the basic premise, but to simply come up with some new 'predictions' to try to make the data fit the paradigm.] < /rant > < flame retardant="on" >

Study: Creative Use of Genes Makes Humans Unique By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - What makes humans different from chimps, apart from a little extra hair? It might be a more creative use of the genes that affect how the brain works, a study published on Thursday suggests.

Humans and chimps share 98.7 percent of their DNA, but are clearly very different. Scientists have long tried to determine how just over 1 percent of our genes can make such a difference.

It may not be an issue of quantity, but of quality, an international team of genetics experts reports in this week's issue of the journal Science. And the differences seem to lie mostly in the brain.

"When you look at blood, you don't see a lot of differences. Chimps look very, very much like us," Ajit Varki of the University of California San Diego, who helped direct the research, said in a telephone interview.

"But when you look at brain you see a lot of differences."

The findings could go a long way to soothing humans flustered at learning that we have fewer genes than even some plants. Public and private teams who sequenced the human genome estimate that we have only about 30,000 to 40,000 genes as compared to, for instance, 50,000 for rice.

Genomics experts say it is not how many genes you have that counts, but what you do with them -- in this case the protein products of genes.

The work by Varki and colleagues, including noted genetics expert Svante Paabo of the Max-Planck-Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, supports this.

They found five times as many changes in gene expression -- actual activity by the genes -- in the human brain than would be predicted by evolution.

"If two species have been apart for 5 million years, you expect a certain amount of differences," Varki said. But there are many more differences in the human brain than expected.

"Whereas if you look at liver and blood, you don't see that," Varki added.

The researchers look at messenger RNA, which is what translates the genetic recipe found in DNA into a final product -- a protein. Every cell contains a full complement of DNA, but what makes one cell become a liver cell and another function as a brain cell depends on what genes are expressed.

They took many different samples of tissue from human cadavers, chimps and orangutans that had died of natural causes, monkeys and mice, and compared them.

GRAY MATTER SHOWS GENETIC DIFFERENCES

In the case of the brain, they took gray matter from the left prefrontal lobe, one of the areas involved in thought as opposed to controlling movement or bodily function.

Using a gene chip, they checked to see which genes were actually being expressed by looking for messenger RNA.

The gene expression patterns of the chimpanzees and the macaque monkeys were more similar to one another than they were to humans. But the genes expressed in blood and liver were very similar in humans and chimps.

In addition, humans differed more from one another than chimps differ from one another, they found. As genomics experts predicted, it seems that humans mix and match their proteins, so that while there are only 30,000 genes, there are an estimated 250,000 different human proteins.

"With an understanding of the differences between humans and chimpanzees, we may be able to learn more about the genetics underlying diseases that seem to harm humans but not chimpanzees," Varki said. For instance, chimps do not die from AIDS or malaria and do not get Alzheimer's or cancer in the way that humans do.

In 1998 Varki and colleagues documented the first genetic difference to be found between humans and chimps -- a cell-surface carbohydrate molecule called sialic acid that chimps have but that humans do not.

"The thing about this topic -- I never met a human being who was not interested in it," Varki said. "

Cordially,

47 posted on 04/12/2002 7:29:09 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Nebullis
A team of international researchers from Germany, the Netherlands and San Diego may have shed light on why chimps and humans are so genetically similar (nearly 99 percent of shared DNA sequences), and yet so mentally different.

The difference is not all that great ... particularly in some people.

48 posted on 04/12/2002 7:34:43 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: gore3000
The differences between humans and chimps are not just of degree, but of quality.

Agreed. Chimps are capable of much more cogent argument than many humans.

49 posted on 04/12/2002 7:36:35 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Diamond
A Reuters story on this study has this very interesting statement...

It's stunning, sometimes, how poorly written the press stories are. Do these writers ever read the original article or talk to the researchers?

When human and chimp DNA is compared and average rates for genetic differences are calculated, a genetic evolutionary speed is inferred. But the cognitive difference between humans and chimps is greater than this genetic difference would imply. It has long been hypothesized that this difference is due to differential gene expression. That is, the difference is an amplification in the downstream transcription and translation of small coding differences seen between humans and chimps. This is the first study which demonstrates this difference in activity of genes in the brain. There is very little, if any difference in expression levels of other systems like liver and blood.

If no difference in expression levels had been found in this study, as Edwin McConkey says: "...we should all have to take a course in metaphysics, and religious fundamentalists would be dancing in the streets."

50 posted on 04/12/2002 10:20:15 AM PDT by Nebullis
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