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To: Cincinatus' Wife; hchutch
I think this attitude that we should simply remove regimes who do not fit in our geopolitical agenda, is dangerous, especially if we remove democratically elected regimes. We would be effectively saying that the rule of law doesn't apply, that only the whims of the current administration in Washington matters. How can there possibly be stability in a country faced with this dilemma? Now, removing Saddam might be something else entirely, because Iraq has no set of rules to determine who is the legitimate authority. Saddam's legitimacy is force. So, our use of force in that instance would be morally neutral - our replacement regime would be as legitimate as Saddam. But Venezuela is not Iraq. Chavez did leave a constitutional "out" for the country, and he did not suspend elections. We simply are not justified in removing him.
If there is evidence that he is specifically aiding and abetting terrorists which are directly threatening us, then there would be a self-defense justification. But no such evidence has been presented aside from the fact that Chavez is friendly with Castro. I suppose we should remove Vicente Fox too.
20 posted on 04/24/2002 12:22:54 AM PDT by billybudd
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To: billybudd; hchutch
If there is evidence that he is specifically aiding and abetting terrorists which are directly threatening us, then there would be a self-defense justification. But no such evidence has been presented aside from the fact that Chavez is friendly with Castro. I suppose we should remove Vicente Fox too.

Don't confuse President Fox with the corrupt PRI majority in the Mexican Congress that likes Castro and communists. - Colombian president says Mexico closing FARC rebel office in Mexico City

_______________________________________________________

Chavez has different stripes

____Chavez also appears to be arming Colombia's Marxist FARC rebels. Colombian defense officials say that between January 1998 and July 2000, they captured 470 clandestine FAL rifles stamped with the insignias of Venezuela's military and its arms manufacturers.--Source

____Inspired by Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi and Cuba's Fidel Castro, military strongman Chavez is turning oil-rich Venezuela into a populist, anti-U.S. dictatorship, say U.S. intelligence sources. They tell Insight that Chavez is providing a safe haven for the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) narcoguerrillas, an 18,000-man insurgency that began decades ago as an offshoot of the local Communist Party and still clings to Marxist-Leninist ideology.--Source

____Anti-aircraft missile experts from Cuba and Venezuela are probably working on the seven anti-aircraft missile bases that have been detected under construction in the distension zone. Armaments tracking detected the arrival of Stinger and Redeye anti-aircraft missiles from Syria several years ago. More shipments of anti-aircraft missiles and launchers have probably been made by the Russian mafia, closely linked to the FARC because of its unique ability to pay in highly lucrative cocaine, which Russia distributes throughout Europe.--Source

____FARC Rebel planned to assassinate Colombia Pres. Pastrana says Venezuela Pres "Chavez 'Trusted' Him"-- BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) - A leftist rebel accused of plotting the assassination of Colombia's president said Thursday night that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez ``trusted'' him completely. Diego Serna, a confessed member of the leftist Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, stunned the nation when he appeared in a video next to Chavez - pulling out his chair, handing him a glass of water - during a state visit in May.--Source

____Chavez: Colombian Rebel Contact 'Humanitarian'-denies collaborating with FARC-- Chavez, who spoke in Bolivia late on Wednesday, was commenting on a video released in Caracas by four opposition journalists that allegedly showed a Venezuelan military team negotiating with FARC guerrillas inside Colombia in July 2000. Opponents of Chavez, a left-wing former paratrooper who attempted an abortive coup in 1992 before winning elections six years later, have frequently accused him of sympathizing with Colombia's Marxist rebels and even of cooperating with them. --Source

____Chavez security chief alleges FARC links-- I am resigning because I disagree with the DISIP's policy of providing security to Colombian guerrillas ... this policy is more than just irregular, it approaches treason to Venezuela given the innumerable deaths, kidnappings and other crimes for which these groups are responsible in our country." Egui Bastidas said 90 percent of his fellow officers "obey orders but do not agree with them" and called on President Hugo Chavez to reverse his policy of tacit support for the rebels. "All the peace negotiations there are over and open confrontations between the guerrillas and the Colombian government have begun. Are they going to carry on letting them cross over into Venezuelan territory?" Egui Bastidas asked. The former DISIP official called on the Armed Forces to issue a statement about their view of the Chávez government's alleged support for the Colombian guerrillas.--Source

____Colombia 'Worried' FARC Crossing Into Venezuela - LIMA, Peru (Reuters) - Colombian President Andres Pastrana said on Saturday he is worried that FARC guerrillas may be crossing into Venezuela, from where his government alleges they launched an attack on Colombia this week. Source

____FARC: Rebel-camp allegations fuel tension in Venezuela - BOGOTA - (AP) -- A Colombian paramilitary group on Thursday offered directions to suspected rebel camps inside Venezuela that the government denies exist, fueling a brewing dispute between the two countries. In a letter posted on the web page of the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia, or AUC, the illegal group claimed to have rebel deserters who are willing to lead officials to the camps. The letter, signed by AUC leaders Carlos Castaño and Salvatore Mancuso, said rebels spent this week dismantling the camps. The dispute has brought up old concerns in Colombia that Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez is sympathetic to Colombia's leftist rebels, a charge he vehemently denies. Source

____Colombia Paper Reports FARC Rebel Camp in Venezuela--El Tiempo said its reporters found the FARC camp consisting of wooden buildings with tin roofs in an area called El Ranchito, a 30-minute trek through jungle from the Colombian village of El Zulia. The newspaper quoted a local FARC commander, identified as Dario, as saying: "Our stay here is temporary. Comrade Chavez has nothing to do with this." …….LINK to "12 civilians killed in two bombings blamed on FARC" - A small explosive device had gone off minutes earlier, attracting people who were in bars and restaurants on a warm weekend night. Then a bomb -- located underneath a car parked on the street -- blew up, shredding bodies and causing damage in a four-block-wide area. Four people were killed in the first explosion and eight died in the second blast. More than 60 people were injured. Source

____Venezuelan army general condemns President Chavez for 'passive' attitude toward Colombian rebels - Also on Wednesday, an army general whose duties included patrolling part of the western border with Colombia accused Chavez of taking a "passive" attitude toward leftist Colombian guerrillas. Brig. Gen. Nestor Gonzalez Gonzalez said at a Caracas news conference that Colombian guerrillas maintain camps along the remote frontier and that Chavez's government was lying when it denied such camps exist inside Venezuela. Gonzalez Gonzalez accused Chavez of refusing to govern democratically, of sympathizing with the rebels and politicizing Venezuela's military. "Mr. President, you have betrayed the country," he said. "Respect the national armed forces." Source

21 posted on 04/24/2002 2:06:47 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: billybudd
April 16, 2002 - Mexico Will Support Censure of Cuba

P.S. I think you aren't giving enough credit to the people living under these megalomaniacs.
They want freedom and the seeds of capitalism and democracy are taking root.

22 posted on 04/24/2002 2:14:45 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: billybudd
Look, my issue is not a geopolitical agenda.

It's about the fact Mr. Chavezis supporting a terrorist group that has expressed its intentions to run operations on U.S. soil and against U.S. interests. At this point, we are talking a head of state whose actions may be threatening the lives of American citizens.

That changes the situation. Had we known of the plans for 9/11 beforehand, we would have taken steps to break the attack up. In this case, FARC is making all the wrong noises to allow us to permit their supporters to remain in power. When do we make a move against Chavez? After we lose 1,000 people? 2,000?

I say we take him out now, deal with the fallout later. It's reasonable to assume that American lives could be at stake here. That trumps all other considerations here.

25 posted on 04/24/2002 7:42:21 AM PDT by hchutch
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