[Loyalist]

When Paul VI was plain old Archbishop Giovanni Battista Montini and Secretary of State under Pius XII, he deliberately disobeyed Pius XII's orders not to maintain unofficial diplomatic contacts with Communist countries.

For his disobedience, he was sent to Milan as Archbishop in 1954, and was not appointed Cardinal. Considering the historical significance of the See of St. Ambrose, not being appointed Cardinal was a sign of the strongest disapproval.

John XXIII, in his naivety, appointed him Cardinal after he was elected, and called the Council. Perhaps he came to regret both acts: some say his dying words were "Close the Council! Close the Council!"

What has this got to do with the present crisis in the American Church? Everything.

[eastsider]

The only way to nullify Vatican II is for another council to be convened to declare it an illegitimate (or "robber" : ) council. This isn't going to happen. Irrespective of the papal intrigue that may or may not have led to Vatican II, it will stand as surely as Nicaea I, convened by the Emperor Constantine.

[Domestic Church]

"When Paul VI was plain old Archbishop Giovanni Battista Montini and Secretary of State under Pius XII, he deliberately disobeyed Pius XII's orders not to maintain unofficial diplomatic contacts with Communist countries. For his disobedience, he was sent to Milan as Archbishop in 1954, and was not appointed Cardinal. Considering the historical significance of the See of St. Ambrose, not being appointed Cardinal was a sign of the strongest disapproval. John XXIII, in his naivety, appointed him Cardinal after he was elected, and called the Council. Perhaps he came to regret both acts: some say his dying words were "Close the Council! Close the Council!" What has this got to do with the present crisis in the American Church? Everything."

Mega WOW! But are you sure JohnXXIII was just naive? So the Gramscian ties go to Paul VI ?!