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Federally Enforcing Right to Life
worldnetdaily ^ | April 22, 2002 | Dr. Alan Keyes

Posted on 04/22/2002 7:28:24 AM PDT by humbletheFiend

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To: Gelato
You stated that your right to life must bend to your right to happiness.

I don't remember being the one to bring up the "right to happiness" until you mentioned it later, though I admit that my memory is poor.

I thought that I was just arguing that a person should be allowed to abdicate their own rights should they choose. Perhaps my example of being terminally ill and in constant agony seemed an inference to the right to happiness (as I certainly wouldn't be happy in such a situation) being used to bend the right to life?
81 posted on 04/22/2002 11:12:00 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Gelato
How about we pass a bill called the "Must Use Rights Act."
82 posted on 04/22/2002 11:13:21 AM PDT by dheretic
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To: dheretic
The state can already kill you without a trial. The state can kill you for whatever reason it desires to already.

Not without any kind of a hearing it can't. If someone acting in the name of the state does so, say a police officer, they are subject to arrest.

83 posted on 04/22/2002 11:16:32 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: freeeee
The Constitution is a framework for government. It is not a legal code for citizens. Aside from treason, piracy and counterfeiting, (and previously alcohol), it does not constitute criminal law. The fed lacks a general police power, as all those were left to the states per the 10th Amendment.

The Constitution does indeed frame our federal government, but it also lists some restrictions on the states and on persons. The Fifth Amendment states that in the United States of America, life must be respected. It is, of course, up to the local government to enact this edict into law an punish those who violate it. But the local government still MUST respect this Constitutional edict. It cannot absolve itself from this obligation unless it secedes from the union.

Therefore, the local governments are required to protect the right to life, liberty, and property, and punish all of those who take infringe on these rights without due process of law.

84 posted on 04/22/2002 11:17:22 AM PDT by Gelato
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To: Eagle Eye
Assisted suicide allows a dying person the ability to manage their death.

If you believe this to be true, you are extremely naive.

85 posted on 04/22/2002 11:18:23 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: humbletheFiend
Are you saying it can be legal to murder blacks in Alabama but not New York? I thought American citizens had the same rights across all states.
86 posted on 04/22/2002 11:20:19 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Eagle Eye
allowing those who choose to to assistthose who are competent to make their own choices.

And after the person is dead, how is he supposed to prove that he did not make that choice.

87 posted on 04/22/2002 11:20:36 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Eagle Eye
I wonder if it is your fears that govern your decisions or your desires to make decisions for other people.

If you wish to start questioning motives, then I wonder if what you want is what Jack Kervorkian wanted, to look in the eyes of someone who is dying to see life extinguished up close and personal. Perhaps you just love to kill, for the thrill of killing.

88 posted on 04/22/2002 11:23:44 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: dheretic
If the hippocratic oath prohibits doctors from fully performing their duties then let's throw it out the window; its "services" are no longer required if that is the case

Go ahead and throw it out the window. Most people, however, would rather have its stipulations attached.

You wouldn't need to amend the constitution if you actually read the friggin bill of rights. The 9th amendment says that just because a right is not listed doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You are correct, the Bill of Rights does not include all possible rights. It does, however, currently prohibit the taking of life without due process. In order to change this, you will have to amend the Constitution.

And it's not denying anyone life. It's making their last days on Earth bearable. The states are under no obligation to prosecute everyone for every action that results in way in someone dying. If they were then a lot of people would be on death row right now. No one would work in the defense industry for fear of a malfunction killing military personnel, no one would work in the embedded systems section of the computer industry, heh no one would work for tire manufacturers!

We're not talking accidents here (although, some accidents resulting in death can be prosecuted under law, such as deaths by drunk driving). We're talking about the government allowing the intentional taking of life. Currently, intentional killing is prohibited by the Fifth Amendment. If you want it to be otherwise, you have a lot of work to do to overhawl the protections the Founders set in place. But go ahead.

89 posted on 04/22/2002 11:26:08 AM PDT by Gelato
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Fortunately we have enough good people in government that he/she would be put on trial for such an offense. However as chariman mao once said, all political authority comes form the barrel of a gun. One need only look at the PRC/USSR to see that that saying is very true. With sufficient numbers of corrupt people in power, that nightmare would indeed come to pass. The only thing besides decent people in the bureacracy keeping that from coming to pass is the fear of a popular revolution. Political authority in our country is only recognized as being in the hands of the public because the only society with a civilian population more heavily armed than us, is Switzerland.
90 posted on 04/22/2002 11:29:13 AM PDT by dheretic
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To: Gelato
Let's get one thing straight here, if you apply the bill of rights to the public then you will create a de jure police state. Every publisher will have to publish every thing coming their way because that is censorship if they refuse. Every store would have to get rid of its security cameras because that would be dragnetting. Anyone who discriminates in hiring employees would be a criminal. I could go on on and on but that would waste the bandwidth here since I've already made my point
91 posted on 04/22/2002 11:32:43 AM PDT by dheretic
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To: AppyPappy
Are you saying it can be legal to murder blacks in Alabama but not New York? I thought American citizens had the same rights across all states.

No, and I'm not even saying that the Federal Government lacks the constitutional authority to adopt the Controlled Substances Act. That is a debatable matter.

What I am saying is that the scope of the Federal Government's legitimate powers are to be found in the Constitution and not in the Declaration of Independence. And I don't believe that to be a debatable matter.

So, it seems to me that anyone wishing to justify the position taken by Ashcroft with regard to Oregon's assisted suicide law should at a minimum include in the argument:

1) a reference to the constitutional provision upon which the Federal Government's right to legislate in this area is based; and

2)a demonstration that Oregon's assisted suicide law violates the Federal legislation.

My concern with Dr. Keyes' analysis is that it avoids these difficult hurdles by employing the Declaration of Independence as some sort of a short-cut. To hit a home run, a batter's got to touch all the bases. He can't just run out to pitcher's mound and run back to home plate.

92 posted on 04/22/2002 11:37:14 AM PDT by humbletheFiend
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To: freeeee
I can't rescind my right to property? How can I give someone a birthday present???

Actually, to give your property away is to exercise your right of property. Your right of property is not just to hold something in your hand, it is to dispose of it according to your will. That, by definition, is what the right to own and control property is.

To follow your logic, you should be able to throw away your right to liberty. This, Alan Keyes also states, is impossible if this right is unalienable. For, if you throw away your freedoms, and you do everything you can to undermine the laws that protect your own liberty, you are not just affecting yourself, you are affecting all other persons.

93 posted on 04/22/2002 11:38:43 AM PDT by Gelato
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To: humbletheFiend
I think Ashcroft's argument is based on the idea that human life is the same across all states. It is not legal to murder someone in one state but not another.
94 posted on 04/22/2002 11:38:48 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: humbletheFiend
I would disagree with Dr. Keyes that the DoI frames our government - ideologically yes, legally - no. The DoI did not create a government - it seceded from one. I firmly believe in state sovereignity, but even at that level the decision to legalize murder is wrong.

No one can sanction the murder of an innocent life - neither before they have the opportunity to be born, nor those that for whatever reason choose to have theirs ended.

The pathetic attempt to justify it is an simply an escape for cowards - to assuage their own guilt while morally being able to claim that they did not kill themselves. Would any of them choose to stand before a firing squad to exercise their "choice"?

What was the name of that movie where people died at age 30 (willingly of forcefully)? "Logan's Run"?

95 posted on 04/22/2002 11:39:13 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: dheretic
Let's get one thing straight here, if you apply the bill of rights to the public then you will create a de jure police state. Every publisher will have to publish every thing coming their way because that is censorship if they refuse. Every store would have to get rid of its security cameras because that would be dragnetting. Anyone who discriminates in hiring employees would be a criminal. I could go on on and on but that would waste the bandwidth here since I've already made my point

I'm in favor of applying the Bill of Rights exactly as they are written. If you'll notice, the First Amendment applies only to Congress. The Fifth Amendment specifically applies to all persons and entities in the United States.

This was the wisdom of the Founders, and I thank God for it.

96 posted on 04/22/2002 11:43:36 AM PDT by Gelato
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To: dheretic
Fortunately we have enough good people in government that he/she would be put on trial for such an offense. However as chariman mao once said, all political authority comes form the barrel of a gun.

Not in this country it doesn't. And it doesn't depend on good men in government either. Try reading the Federalist Papers. Our system assumes selfish men, acting out of self-interest, and bound by law, would check each others naturally tendency to aggrandize power and wealth. To give any person the legal ability to snuff out the life of someone else, and then say that the victim requested it is to set up doctors of medicine as a kind of public executioners.

In Holland they started with a law much like the Oregon law. Then they started killing any sick person they wanted to who had not made a request to be kept alive. Now they are killing any sick person they want to even if they have requested staying alive. Killing is too profitable to allow the patients to interfere in the process.

97 posted on 04/22/2002 11:46:11 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
I would disagree with Dr. Keyes that the DoI frames our government - ideologically yes, legally - no.

Some of the phrases in the the Declaration of Independence are often used as make-weight ideological arguments in support of a constitutional analysis, but I don't think I've ever before seen anyone attempt to use it as a substitute for the Constitution in a constitutional analysis.

Another huge problem with this approach just occurred to me. The Constitution has provisions which allow for its being amended. By what authority could we ever amend the Declaration of Independence?

98 posted on 04/22/2002 11:48:20 AM PDT by humbletheFiend
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To: Gelato
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I don't see anything in the 5th amendment that says that it applies to private citizens.

99 posted on 04/22/2002 11:48:42 AM PDT by dheretic
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To: Gelato
to give your property away is to exercise your right of property. Your right of property is not just to hold something in your hand, it is to dispose of it according to your will. That, by definition, is what the right to own and control property is.

Your right of life is not just to live it, but to dispose of it according to your will. That, by definition is what the right to own and control one's own life is.

To follow your logic, you should be able to throw away your right to liberty.

That's right. What do you think happens when one volunteers for the military?

100 posted on 04/22/2002 11:49:29 AM PDT by freeeee
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