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Schools, Kids and Whippings
Sierra Times ^ | Dorothy Anne Seese

Posted on 05/20/2002 9:54:04 AM PDT by Sir Gawain

Schools, Kids and Whippings
no, I can't agree with that!
By Dorothy Anne Seese
Published 05. 19. 02 at 21:42 Sierra Time

Because of the lack of discipline among school kids these days, some folks honestly believe that bringing back classroom "whuppins" is going to solve the problems created by parental failure, "easy" ways out of personal responsibility, federalized education where the agenda overrides parental authority, where schools blacklist "problem" parents who are, for the most part, those who disagree with flaky school policies, and a great deal of federally-sponsored racial bias.

To which I say, bullschwacky!

Okay so I don't have kids of my own, but I had two parents, a war-zone home, and I have friends who do have kids. Discipline begins at home. Respect for authority begins at home. The knowledge of right and wrong begins at home. Instruction about the value of a good education begins at home. In fact, life begins at home!

No whuppins at any school will instill in any child the values that parents fail to teach or teach properly. It might make for more dropouts, runaways and resentment, including a few more school shootings or other acts of violence, because we're living in a violent era that didn't exist when I was growing up. Oh yes, some violence has always existed ... but not on the scale we see it now. Today's headlines injected onto a 1950's front page of a city newspaper would cause collective cardiac arrest.

Letting federalized teachers whip the daylights out of kids in school because they have religious beliefs opposed to certain teachings in the schools might make more drones for the Great Senseless Society, but it won't produce better kids and it will not enhance education. It won't stop school violence but it may increase it.

My mother and her siblings grew up in an environment where grandpa "ran the home" and he used a double razor strop to whip his frail daughters and one son. When granny tried to intercede on behalf of the kids to talk to them, grandpa would threaten her with "stay out of this, Emma, or else." That isn't being the man of the house ... it's being a brute. (As a side note, once granny got over being intimidated, she gave him "hail columbia" for the rest of his living days and told him over and over "I was too young and dumb to know I'd married a crazy man." She gave no quarter and spared no insult, but she did stay married. When he died, she shed no tears.)

My mother was dead-set against corporal punishment as the standard way of training children. She felt there were times it was needed, and I got a few wooden coathangers swatted across my back, but from as far back as any memories exist, mom first tried talking to me, then if I didn't get the point, she was good at intimidation. My dad didn't like me, my mother knew it, and would not let him lay a hand on me. Once, when I was 14, mama and I were having a somewhat heated discussion, and without warning he interfered long enough to backhand me across the jaw and send all 103 pounds of me sprawling across the living room floor and into a chair. Of course, this is the same dad who dumped mom and me in Arizona when I was in my early 20's, demanded a divorce, and went about his womanizing and the booze my mother wouldn't let him drink.

The school issue was never a concern when it came to corporal punishment. I went to California private schools, was a good student, corporal punishment was not applied. Rather, the headmistress of the school sent for the parents for a "conference" when the kids were a problem. At least I didn't have to be terrified of school ... and I do not like to be hit. There are some kids that people feel like blistering until they cannot sit down for a week, I've met them all through life, but look into their homes and generally the problem is readily discernible. Delinquent parents. Or just plain mean parents like my dad and my grandpa.

Bringing back corporal punishment into federalized schools allows for all sorts of options for teacher abuse. Race bias is one of them, and it exists. It also exists in the workplace, as I found out all too soon when I went to work for the State of Arizona in 1992 where Hispanics were favored. I have no doubt that kids whose parents are trying to bring them up with values of abstinence, a drug-free life, belief in God, and respect for proper authority would meet with some federalized teachers who would beat the daylights out of them at the slightest mention of any of these precepts. We're also talking about the same federalized system that calls it a crime in some states for parents to discipline their kids with a swat on the behind when they act up in the store.

Neither the school nor the government have the job of parenting children, and the parents of this nation should make sure they never do, because they are trying to do just that.

Now, before I start sounding like I've gone soft-headed on bringing up kids, I am a believer in discipline beginning at the earliest age. This idea that kids need to get in touch with their inner selves and be given free reign for all sorts of acting-out is nonsense only a new-age society would promote. Any parent with that philosophy isn't fit to bring up children anyway, and that seems to be the way "Taliban John" Lindh was allowed to express himself. Advice from the Spock of Star Trek would be better than the advice Dr. Spock gave in the 60's about how to let kids run wild and grow up without any respect for authority.

However, as nearly as I can tell from the reports that I receive from folks who have kids attending highly federalized schools and their battle to keep the kids from calling 911 at the slightest hint of discipline (where did kids five and six learn about that?) -- the first place to begin with corporal punishment is with delinquent parents, and the second place is with leftist teachers who instruct kids on their "rights" against home discipline.

Originally, public schools were there to educate children in specific courses such as language, spelling, arithmetic, history, civics, and other "school" subjects to prepare them for either college or the workplace. All other child-rearing was to be done at home. Living day in and day out in any home environment will, intentionally or unintentionally, transfer to the children the values modeled in the home. That's how we got the welfare dynasties. The values of society as reflected in the neighborhood in which kids are brought up will also transfer, which is why so many thoughtful parents today are trying to get out of the city and into areas where they can keep a closer eye on the kids, their friends, and what's being taught at school.

When we can't trust our government with our immigration policies, our Bill of Rights or even our Constitution, should we trust them with the children? I would say at this point the statement of former president Ronald Reagan applies to the highest degree: "government is not the solution to the problem, government IS the problem."

Amen?



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
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To: AppyPappy
You can consider it running away when it is your safety at stake. When it is your child's safety, it is not called running away. It is called responsible parenting.
51 posted on 05/20/2002 12:58:18 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: ThomasJefferson
If you have personally never spanked your children then you are indeed lucky....or they are...LOL.

All I know is that yes, I have spanked my progeny with my hand and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. When I was in public school until the great busing pograms began in 1970, corporal punishment was swift and sure and the schools were better for it. Nowadays, public school teachers I know lament the lack of control in the classroom and of course have no discipline but detention and suspension. Private schools I attended had serious corporal punishment and there was no exception unless in a wheelchair or something of that nature or being a girl.

52 posted on 05/20/2002 1:00:07 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: riley1992
It's not a safety issue. It's a discipline issue. He is perfectly safe.
53 posted on 05/20/2002 1:00:24 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: ThomasJefferson
The problem is that the single mothers can't met out dicipline.

The boys run rough-shod on them... and the teachers at school.

The parents should be the one to met out punishment, not the schools.

If the child is warned to be quiet and behave... and does not, he/she should be removed from school.

2 bad kids left to disrupt a class will stop the learning process for all.

It's a no-brainer and had worked for over 100 years... prior to the last 20.

54 posted on 05/20/2002 1:01:41 PM PDT by johnny7
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To: AppyPappy
You object to small things while ignoring the big things

We don't agree on what things are big and what things are small it seems. I think you have it precisely backwards.

My children's rights to be secure in their person and my rights to raise my children without other people physically assaulting them are big things IMO.

55 posted on 05/20/2002 1:03:00 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: johnny7
I agree with all the things you said. None of them require corporal punishment.
56 posted on 05/20/2002 1:04:25 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
Your son was attacked and the kids who did it received little or no punishment and yet you are saying it is not a safety issue? I suppose then you must have received a signed and notarized statement from the two angelic little attackers promising to never do it again since they are certain to have changed their ways without receiving so much as detention?

You already said they turned around and did it to another student yet you are saying it is not a safety issue?

57 posted on 05/20/2002 1:06:13 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: AppyPappy
The police don't care what happens in kindergarten.

Neither do I. So I can surmise that you also think that I should cede to some government employee the right to HIT MY KINDERGARTENER? That is what this is all about, the right to hit 5 yr olds? They used to make us wear dunce caps and sit behind the piano.

58 posted on 05/20/2002 1:09:11 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: Sir Gawain
This entire article is a mishmash of sob-story anecdotes. Why not just come out and say, "I don't believe in corporal punishment because I've had sucky experiences with it." Geezus.

"Okay so I don't have kids of my own"

Okay another ditzy dame...
I don't got no anklebiters either but I know what a hellraiser I was when I was young enough to hold down, and I for damn sure deserved every a$$-whack I got. Any kid o' mine is going to get the almighty devil beaten outta him when occasion dictates. That's the only way most kids learn.

Every anti-spanker I've met seems to have one of the following rationales:
1. History of abuse in immediate family.
2. Some liberal hoity-toity white-linen idea that inflicting pain to get your point across is uncouth, violent and primitive.
3. "Spanking??! What kind of kinky b@st@rd ARE you! [SMACK]" ;)

59 posted on 05/20/2002 1:10:00 PM PDT by maxwell
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To: ThomasJefferson
They aren't going to HIT your delicate little 5 year-old. Geez, put the hyperbole down.
60 posted on 05/20/2002 1:13:25 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Ol' Sparky
Corporal punishment in schools is a good idea. Government-run schools are a bad idea.

The best teachers that I had never needed to resort to corporal punishment.  In fact, only the worst sort did so.
61 posted on 05/20/2002 1:27:39 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: ThomasJefferson
They used to make us wear dunce caps

I shall refrain from obvious comment.

62 posted on 05/20/2002 1:29:39 PM PDT by Texaggie79
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To: ThomasJefferson
The problem with kids today and people like you is that you think kids have rights. Kids need to do what they ar told plain and simple! There is no room for argument or discussion. Just do what you are told or face the consequences, and with pansy ass punishment like time out, there are virtually no consequences.

Justin

63 posted on 05/20/2002 1:50:09 PM PDT by justin4bush
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To: justin4bush
The problem with kids today and people like you is that you think kids have rights.

Children's rights are held in proxy by their parents until they reach the age of majority. Parents exercise these rights on behalf of their children. If ANYONE strikes a child without explicit parental permission, they are committing assault on a minor and should be vigorously prosecuted.

If the state fails to punish the perpetrator, the parents will take that job upon themselves, if they have any spine at all. Schoolyard scraps are one thing. Adults striking a child are quite another. Woe be to the fool who so much as touches my child without my permission. One would do better taunting wild bears.

64 posted on 05/20/2002 1:58:38 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: Ol' Sparky
Corporal punishment in schools is a good idea. Government-run schools are a bad idea.

How can an institution that ought not exist have the authority to hit your child?

65 posted on 05/20/2002 2:00:45 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: AppyPappy
If you send your child to a government school, you must live within the bounds of the school.

FALSE!! Government schools are compulsory and governmental, therefore they have NO AUTHORITY to usurp parental rights.

66 posted on 05/20/2002 2:02:51 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: southern rock
So a school cannot punish a student in any way without involving the parent?
67 posted on 05/20/2002 2:04:38 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: riley1992
I have no problem giving my daughters a spanking when they need it but over my dead body will I give someone else the go ahead to do so.

Because you are a REAL parent. God bless ya!

68 posted on 05/20/2002 2:05:56 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: AppyPappy
A paddling is no big deal except to the kids who know they might get one. I would rather a child be paddled then sent home to an empty house where he can watch TV all day. Some punishment.

If a government school teacher has the authority to hit your child, then an IRS agent has the authority to beat the hell you. They are both government agents. No difference.

69 posted on 05/20/2002 2:08:05 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: Ol' Sparky
Schools have the right to properly discipline students.

Not government schools.

70 posted on 05/20/2002 2:09:04 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: Sir Gawain;Landru
No whuppins at any school will instill in any child the values that parents fail to teach or teach properly.

I think this is the crux of the issue--a child who has had no discipline, and has learned no respect for authority at home, will only become angry and more rebellious if they receive corporal punishment at school.

My kids went to a Christian school where it was understood they could receive at rap on the behind, but they had already been raised with the concept of consequences for bad behavior.

As for government schools, we can't trust them to teach the basic 3R's, much less dispense appropriate discipline.

71 posted on 05/20/2002 2:12:07 PM PDT by scholar
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To: justin4bush
The problem with kids today and people like you is that you think kids have rights.

PARENTS HAVE RIGHTS!!! Government schools may NOT violate PARENTAL RIGHTS by laying hands on their children.

72 posted on 05/20/2002 2:12:27 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: southern rock
hell you = hell out of you.
73 posted on 05/20/2002 2:14:24 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: AppyPappy
So a school cannot punish a student in any way without involving the parent?

Not physical punishment.

74 posted on 05/20/2002 2:15:05 PM PDT by southern rock
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To: Sir Gawain
NO SPANKING--HIGH CRIME RATE!
75 posted on 05/20/2002 2:35:51 PM PDT by INSENSITIVE GUY
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To: Sir Gawain
Discipline begins at home. Respect for authority begins at home. The knowledge of right and wrong begins at home. Instruction about the value of a good education begins at home. In fact, life begins at home!

Amen Sister! Preach it! Best wisdom I have seen on FR in quite a while

76 posted on 05/20/2002 2:48:57 PM PDT by mrfixit514
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To: scholar;mudboy slim;sultan88
"When we can't trust our government with our immigration policies, our Bill of Rights or even our Constitution, should we trust them with the children? I would say at this point the statement of former president Ronald Reagan applies to the highest degree: 'government is not the solution to the problem, government IS the problem.'"

Now why'd you call me over here?
Hmmmm?

...doesn't that paragraph say all that really needs to be said?

;^)

77 posted on 05/20/2002 3:44:08 PM PDT by Landru
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To: Texaggie79
I shall refrain from obvious comment.

Too late for that. Heck you can't even insult someone without screwing it up. :-)

Here's the right way to do it;
If they had you in the class they would have put velcro on it so you could continue to wear the same one even today.

78 posted on 05/20/2002 3:50:11 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
They aren't going to HIT your delicate little 5 year-old.

Thanks for the re-assurance. You were the one who suggested it when you brought up the 5 yr olds hitting each other.

Geez, put the hyperbole down.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your comment when you dragged it down to the kindergarten level to make the point about your boys getting slapped around by the bullies.

79 posted on 05/20/2002 3:53:04 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: TomGuy
I went through the same thing in the 80s and 90s. I didn't dare cross my crazy father's wrath. Then again, I never really did anything worthy of getting beat over. I think the worst I ever done was fight, and that wasn't too bad. I was more worried about making bad grades and getting beat. Now I won't lie, being a mischievious child in junior high landed me grabbing my ankles and taking swats and looking back in retrospect I deserved it, though at the time I was being rebellious to stupid systematic brainwashing teaching in public schools.
80 posted on 05/20/2002 3:57:03 PM PDT by roachie
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To: justin4bush
The problem with kids today and people like you is that you think kids have rights.

Everyone has the basic right to be secure in their person. Free from physical attack by any other person. If you don't understand that you don't understand much.

Kids need to do what they ar told plain and simple! There is no room for argument or discussion.

Good, I'll have your kids working in my yard this weekend and if they stop for even a moment I'll kick the crap out of them. Hey, it's with your permission.

Just do what you are told or face the consequences, and with pansy ass punishment like time out, there are virtually no consequences.

If a government employee puts a hand on my child they will receive a permanent time out.

81 posted on 05/20/2002 4:00:56 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
some of the worst a$$ beatings I ever got was when I was 5. I have seemed to stayed straight so far...
82 posted on 05/20/2002 4:01:43 PM PDT by roachie
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To: maxwell
This article is not about coporal punishment instituted by a parent being wrong, as the author points out her own mother spanked her when it was needed. It is about allowing a stranger to hit your child because you are too lazy or stupid to parent them yourself. I spank my children but I can promise you one thing, the first adult who lays hands on either of my daughters (aside from my mother who has full spanking rights if necessary when they visit her) without my knowledge or consent (of which there never will be any given), will be crawling around on all fours looking for their teeth. And no, that is not false internet bravado. That is the plain and simple truth.
83 posted on 05/20/2002 4:38:34 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: ThomasJefferson
Every important detail, such as assault, has been reported.

Said in a way that would make any government operative proud.

84 posted on 05/20/2002 4:52:55 PM PDT by usadave
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To: ThomasJefferson
*I'll bet you $10 million dollars. Now prove your kids were never hit.

**Get your money up (a letter of guarantee from a major bank will do)

So, are you accepting the bet? Are you prepared to put up $10 million dollars of your own money? Are you going to get a letter of guarantee from a major bank? Well?

85 posted on 05/20/2002 4:59:51 PM PDT by usadave
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To: ThomasJefferson
*You are gagging on a gnat and swallowing a camel.

**I have no idea what this phrase means.

That's OK. Most of what you've said on this thread is bland and meaningless.
You sound more like a robot than a human being.

86 posted on 05/20/2002 5:08:35 PM PDT by usadave
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To: scholar
My kids went to a Christian school where it was understood they could receive at rap on the behind, but they had already been raised with the concept of consequences for bad behavior. As for government schools, we can't trust them to teach the basic 3R's, much less dispense appropriate discipline.

Way to go, scholar!!

87 posted on 05/20/2002 7:14:33 PM PDT by sultan88
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To: ThomasJefferson
I don't know what state you live in but In Illinois, corporal punishment is forbidden and it has been since I was in elementary school in the 50s, probably before then. Rightfully so.

I know you have a bet going on about your children getting assaulted at school, but I'd like a bet on the above statement. Spanking was still allowed in Illinois the 80's. Decision done by districts.

88 posted on 05/20/2002 7:29:30 PM PDT by Pure Country
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To: usadave
I don't remember addressing you or making any bet with you. Mind your own business.

If you have an argument to present on the topic of the thread please make it or go play in heavy traffic.

Pappy needs your help like he needs another head. You insignificant twit.

89 posted on 05/20/2002 8:15:08 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: Pure Country
I know you have a bet going on about your children getting assaulted at school, but I'd like a bet on the above statement.

I have no bet with anyone. Just a little back and forth between two old posters here that need not be explained to people who are not involved.

Spanking was still allowed in Illinois the 80's. Decision done by districts.

You may be right about that, I was addressing the school systems in Cook county. I would have to do more research on others.

Now you can tell me if it is still allowed anywhere in Illinois since you claim to know so much about it.

90 posted on 05/20/2002 8:20:48 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
I don't remember addressing you or making any bet with you. Mind your own business.

Pssst, guess what? You're posting to a public forum. Anything you post here becomes everybody's business. If you want to send a personal message to another FReeper, then use FReepmail. Otherwise I or any other FReeper can and will post our own comments in response to your comments on this or any other thread on this forum. I don't care whether or not you like it because that's the way things are set up here on FR. So you might as well get used to it.

If you have an argument to present on the topic of the thread please make it or go play in heavy traffic.

LOL! You make Don Rickles sound like a Sunday school teacher by comparison. Why don't you try relaxing your butt muscles a little bit and then maybe you wouldn't be so apt to jump down everybody's throats if they don't happen to agree with you 100% on a particular issue.

Pappy needs your help like he needs another head. You insignificant twit.

That's funny, because based on your "contributions" to this thread (which were mostly in the form of insults), that's precisely the impression that you have given us of yourself.

91 posted on 05/20/2002 11:24:10 PM PDT by usadave
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To: usadave
Pssst, guess what? You're posting to a public forum. Anything you post here becomes everybody's business.

You can read it and comment of course, but the post wasn't to you or about the topic so if you get involved you look like a moron. I'm quite sure that if Appy Pappy needs your pathetic help he will be sure to call on you.

because that's the way things are set up here on FR. So you might as well get used to it.

I've been here a lot longer than you so I know what goes on here, apparently you do not. People don't usually get involved in comments which are made specifically to others posters.

Why don't you try relaxing your butt muscles a little bit

You seem to have an unusal interest in my butt muscles.

That's funny, because based on your "contributions" to this thread (which were mostly in the form of insults), that's precisely the impression that you have given us of yourself.

Us? You have a frog in your pocket? Please recount the insults specifically, not including the ones made to you which were in response to your attacks on me.

Now go play in traffic.

92 posted on 05/21/2002 7:21:30 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Now you can tell me if it is still allowed anywhere in Illinois since you claim to know so much about it.

What a snotty reply. If you were in my classroom--the paddle would be out. You obviously had parents who did not believe in the paddle. The only reason I know about Illinois is because I quit teaching 5 years ago and yes, I spanked. I didn't say "hit", I said spanked. There is a difference. If you put up the rules and say this is the consequence, then if they are broken, everyone knows what is going to happen. Figured if a kid was that bent on a spanking, I sure wasn't going to disappoint him.

Had parents who signed papers that said that I couldn't touch their kids. I said "fine" with me--everytime your kid is out of line, I will call you at work and he will be allowed back in my room after you discipline him. After about 3 "at work" calls, the parents usually told me to do whatever I needed to do to his child--just "Don't call me at work anymore!"

If you don't allow the teacher to discipline, then you had better be prepared to do it yourself!

93 posted on 05/21/2002 9:52:32 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Pure Country
"What a snotty reply. If you were in my classroom--the paddle would be out."

LOL!

I'm an ear puller myself. Hell to be honest whatever it takes!

Sounds a shame you quit teaching.

Keep smiling,

Philip

94 posted on 05/21/2002 10:02:37 AM PDT by Jakarta ex-pat
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To: Pure Country
If you were in my classroom--the paddle would be out.

At your own peril.

You obviously had parents who did not believe in the paddle.

Incorrect teacher. Good teachers don't jump to conclusions. It is obvious that you weren't a good teacher.

The only reason I know about Illinois is because I quit teaching 5 years ago

Excellent development for the pupils.

and yes, I spanked.

Good thing you never had a chance to touch my children. For you. People like you are poster children for why government schools should be abolished and why I got my children out of them as soon as possible.

I didn't say "hit", I said spanked. There is a difference.

I don't trust other people to make the distinction. Government employees would be particularly suspect in this regard.

If you put up the rules and say this is the consequence, then if they are broken, everyone knows what is going to happen.

Apparently you didn't know what would happen if you violated one of the basic rules of life. The right to be secure in one's person. To be free of physical violence. Even you can figure it out though.

Figured if a kid was that bent on a spanking, I sure wasn't going to disappoint him.

You figured wrong if you touched one of my children.

Had parents who signed papers that said that I couldn't touch their kids. I said "fine" with me--everytime your kid is out of line, I will call you at work and he will be allowed back in my room after you discipline him.

Now you are thinking correctly. Keep your hands to yourself and I will take the responsibility for my child's actions.

After about 3 "at work" calls, the parents usually told me to do whatever I needed to do to his child--just "Don't call me at work anymore!"

The parents were morons. They didn't take responsibility for their children. They were slackers and cowards. They abdicated it to a government employee. A big problem in our society.

If you don't allow the teacher to discipline use physical punishment, then you had better be prepared to do it yourself!

Perfect!!! Go to the head of the class and take off your dunce cap!

PS, I personally attended government schools in the 50s and 60s. Kindergarten through grade 12. I never witnessed one single case of a government employee touching a child for purposes of discipline. The government schools I attended at that time would put private schools today to shame. In every catagory including discipline. All without physical violence. Go figure, if you can.

95 posted on 05/21/2002 10:30:27 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: usadave
Thomas J sounds like someone who got beat up a lot by other kids at school.

I can visualize my dad calling the cops because a 4th grader punched me in the nose and I came home crying.

NOT

96 posted on 05/21/2002 10:42:29 AM PDT by philetus
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To: riley1992
I have no idea why you would want to cede your job to strangers.

Thank you - you beat me to it. (No pun intended)

97 posted on 05/21/2002 10:47:40 AM PDT by truenospinzone
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To: Pure Country
Had parents who signed papers that said that I couldn't touch their kids. I said "fine" with me--everytime your kid is out of line, I will call you at work and he will be allowed back in my room after you discipline him. After about 3 "at work" calls, the parents usually told me to do whatever I needed to do to his child--just "Don't call me at work anymore!"

Congratulations on validating the "It takes a village" brigade...

98 posted on 05/21/2002 11:03:25 AM PDT by truenospinzone
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To: philetus
Thomas J sounds like someone who got beat up a lot by other kids at school.

If you are going to talk about me, have the balls to do it to my face. And you can be pretty sure you wouldn't have been a kid beating me up.

I can visualize my dad calling the cops because a 4th grader punched me in the nose and I came home crying.

The topic is about ADULTS having physical contact with CHILDREN. Try to keep up.

99 posted on 05/21/2002 11:16:45 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
I don`t remember addressing you. Mind your own business, you insignificant twit.
100 posted on 05/21/2002 11:35:10 AM PDT by philetus
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