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Conservatism and the Founding
Imprimis (via "Libertyhaven.com") ^ | July 1983 | Forrest McDonald

Posted on 05/21/2002 5:44:16 PM PDT by aconservaguy

How Conservatism Guided America's Founding Forrest McDonald

Editor's Preview: It was not state weakness, but incipiently totalitarian behavior by unchecked state governments in the years after 1776, that set the stage for the Philadelphia Convention of 1787. National authority must be strengthened; but how?

Liberty is secure in the United States today only because Washington, Hamilton, and their conservative allies bested radical ideologues like Jefferson and Madison in the ensuing struggle to shape the U.S. Constitution.

Thus John Locke, philosophical father of the latter group, may be a less benign influence on history than is commonly supposed: millenial excesses from the French Revolution to abolitionism to the Great Society owe much to his rationalist theories.

Forrest McDonald, narrator of this drama, is a historian who gives his University of Alabama students (and his Hillsdale readers) tools of rare power for understanding America. His succinct definitions of conservative principles and their antithesis, the illusions of modernity that ever threaten freedom, are close to classic. And as to the dinner-table remark that fathered today's Democratic Party... well, read and see.

Most historians agree, I think, that the United States was born of a conservative defense of American liberty. During the imperial crisis of 1763 to 1776, leaders of the American resistance to British measures repeatedly justified their stand by accusing the mother country of introducing radical constitutional innovations and by insisting that the resisting colonists had all the weight of history, custom, and the "ancient constitution" on their side. When the British government refused to return to the tried-and-true system that had prevailed before 1763 - the revolutionary leaders maintained - Americans had no choice but to declare and fight for their independence.

Similarly, it would appear obvious that, upon declaring their independence, the Americans ipso facto committed themselves to a political regime whose central tenet was the sacredness of liberty. The Tree of Liberty, the Liberty Boys, the Sons of Liberty, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that was what it was all about.

But the matter was actually not so simple as that. From the outset-even among advocates of independence and constitutional union - there was a struggle between conservative champions of freedom and advocates of a modernity whose program was entirely antithetical to establishing a regime of liberty. The outcome of that struggle was an institutional commitment to freedom, but the struggle itself was imprinted on the American political sub-consciousness, from which it has resurfaced periodically to our own times.

Let me begin by making clear how I use the operative terms "conservatism" and " modernity." Conservatism first.

What Conservatives Believe Conservatism is not an ideology or a program-its programmatic content varies with place and time - but a set of values and an attitude toward changes in the established social order. Its opposite is not any particular dogmatic secular religion - such as communism or socialism - but dogmatic secular religion itself.

Peter Viereck once defined conservatism as "the political secularization of the doctrine of original sin." Eric Voegelin defined its opposite as the political secularization of the heresy of gnosticism.

Edmund Burke distinguished between "abstraction," or a priori reasoning divorced from or contrary to history and experience, and "principles," or sound general ideas derived from observation of human nature throughout time and space. Thus, despite the diversity inherent in conservatism, some principles may be delineated as having been held in common by conservatives from the eighteenth century through the twentieth.

A fundamental principle concerns morality. Conservatives believe that there are basic, universal, and eternal moral truths. They are not unanimous as to the source of these moral truths: most believe that they are ordained by - God, but non-theists among them attribute the origin to the natural order. All agree, however, that good and evil are equally real, that every adult human except the mentally enfeebled is endowed with a moral sense that enables him to distinguish fight from wrong, and that man's universal religious instinct is the truest foundation of the social order.

Conservatives are also concerned with morality in another sense of the term: morality as mores or social custom. Many moral values are peculiar to individual societies, and even the transcending moral values may be delimited or refined by social norms. "Thou shalt not kill," for instance, is a universal mandate, but no society interprets it to forbid absolutely the destruction of any living thing, animal or vegetable. Moreover, virtually every society makes exceptions even within the human species; most conservatives would hold that the commandment does not apply to self-defense; to defense of family and the innocent, and to legally, sanctioned defense of one's country. Similarly, though incest is universally prohibited, the degree of kinship necessary to invoke the injunction varies from society to society, as does the way kinship is reckoned. Thus there are both absolute and relative moral values. The two are inevitably and sometimes confusingly related, meaning that bona fide moral dilemmas do arise.

Conservative attitudes toward morality give rise to a profound concern for the necessity of freedom. As a creature with a moral sense and as one endowed with free will, man can choose between moral and immoral behavior - but he is responsible for the consequences of his actions. Government and society, to be moral, must allow individuals the freedom necessary for them to be responsible. How much liberty is desirable beyond this minimum varies with the force and nature of social custom in each political regime. In general, liberty flows not from the extent of popular participation in law-making but from the extent that a people is habitually law-abiding: law is the fountain of liberty.

The conservative believes in justice tempered by equity, and he does not confuse the two. At its core, justice has to do with predictability and with the sense of security it provides. There are rules of acceptable behavior, known or knowable to all, and the rules carry with them rewards and punishments, also known or knowable. Few conservatives are so confident of their own rectitude that they would prefer strict and unvarying justice ("I cry for my country," Jefferson is reported to have said, "when I contemplate the possibility that there may be a just God"), and accordingly they believe that justice should be tempered with mercy, compassion, equity. But they also believe, with Blackstone, that "the liberty of considering all cases in an equitable light must not be indulged too far, lest thereby we destroy all law.... And law without equity, though hard and disagreeable, is much more desirable for the public good, than equity without law: which would make every judge a legislator, and introduce most infinite confusion."

Paralleling the conservative's attitude toward law and justice is his view of society. Conservatives believe that social continuity is crucial and that, while a just society must allow for the dignity of its individual members, the needs of society itself are primary. They base this position upon recognition of the human condition: the long period of dependency during infancy and childhood dictates that mankind cannot subsist without society. But there is an ever-present tension between the social instincts and the instincts for self-gratification. It is the function of social institutions to temper individual instincts in the interests of social instincts and to convince the citizen of the primacy of the needs of the group. That social institutions normally, if imperfectly, do perform this function is attested by history: when circumstances make it necessary people overcome even the powerful instinct of self-preservation and willingly sacrifice themselves to preserve the society of which they are a part.

The relationship between society and government evokes the conservative principle of the desirability of variety, diversity, plurality, inequality. People differ from one another in various ways - ethnicity, sex, age, ability, class, wealth. If the results of any of these group differences should jeopardize the health of the entire body politic, government may legitimately intervene; but otherwise such diversity and inequality, as natural concomitants of the human condition, are either outside the province of government or entitled to its protection.

Another conservative principle is that of prescription: that there are rights and obligations which rest upon "immemorial usage, so that the memory of man runneth not to the contrary. " Over the course of time, we have acquired habits, conventions, and customs, which are woven unconsciously into the very fabric of our being. Conservatives believe that, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, man tampers with these or replaces them with more "rational" substitutes at his mortal peril.

Indeed, conservatives apply the principle of prudence to all change. They recognize that not every ill of society can be cured and that an incautiously applied remedy can be worse than the disease. The need for prudence can be expressed in terms of the underlying law of ecology: you cannot change just one thing. To make any change, however rational, in an immensely diverse, intricate, and interconnected social organism is necessarily to make changes affecting other parts and the whole, often in entirely irrational and unforeseen ways. Prudence requires that one take into account, as far as possible, the long-range multiple consequences of any proposed action.

Finally, the prudent conservative recognizes that concrete situations may sometimes make principles inconsistent, internally or one with another. In such circumstances one makes choices from the available options on the basis of a priority of values, and, if possible, leaves open the door to change the course if it turns out to be wrong.

Modernist Ideology Defined Now let us turn to modernity. The concept is a slippery one whose meaning and connotations have moved about even more capriciously than those of most words, but I shall be using it in a quite specific way. Modernity, in the political sense, is a phenomenon that emerged in the eighteenth century largely as the ideological progeny of the seventeenth-century twist upon the old quarrel of the ancients and the moderns. Partisans of the ancients maintained that classical knowledge, arts, and sciences were superior in every way to those of the contemporary world; the seventeenth-century modems contended that, since Descartes' mathematics was a science unknown to and demonstrably superior to that of classical times, modern man could and would surpass the ancients in all branches of human endeavor, for the new science could be made the measure of all things.

The eighteenth-century political extension of this modernist position was rationalism: the belief that prescriptive orders, being irrationally evolved, could and should be dismantled and replaced by rational orders that would produce universal human happiness. To put it differently, the essence of modernity is the embracing of dogmatic, scientific, secularized millenialism.

A good many intellectual strands went into the weaving of rationalism as a political ideology, including the ideas of some of the Levellers of the 1640s, Thomas Hobbes, and Descartes and various other French theorists, but the pivotal thinker was John Locke. Three of Locke's propositions, in the vulgarized form in which they circulated in the eighteenth century, are relevant to the subject at hand.

One was his epistemology, which postulated that man is born tabula rasa - a blank slate, with no inherent tendencies, either good or evil-but with infinite capacity for being molded in either direction.

The second is Locke's theory of natural rights, a perversion of the Western World's natural law tradition, which had emphasized the naturally (or divinely) imposed obligation to choose good over evil.

The third was Locke's theory of the social contract, which under certain circumstances justified the destruction and reconstruction of the civil order.

These ideas were popularized and carried to their logical extreme by various Frenchmen, notably La Mettrie-who, building on Locke's sensationalism to fashion a thesis that Locke himself had specifically rejected, published in 1749 a book whose conclusion was clear in its title, Man a Machine.

The road from La Mettrie to Robespierre - to the Reign of Terror and the guillotine - was straight and true. Though the goals of rationalist reformers were peace, brotherhood, and freedom, their efforts necessarily led to war, murder, and tyranny, and for a very powerful reason. Whatever the nature of the human animal may be, a part of that nature is to resist when someone else tries to make one over in accordance with what he "knows" is best for one. And, when men refuse to be made into angels and societies refuse to be made into heavenly cities, the rationalist must either give up the attempt or resort to totalitarian force. He feels justified in exerting that force because he serves the higher cause of Reason.

Return to Eden? There was, of course, almost none of this kind of rationalism in colonial America, but there was something else which, in its psychological substance, was closely akin to it. Independence did entail a commitment to liberty, but it also, as a concomitant of the way it came to pass, entailed a commitment to republicanism; and republicanism, in the form in which Americans had received it, was another phylum of the species Modernity.

To be sure, Americans derived their notions about republican principles of political theory partly from study of the classics and of writers of the Italian Renaissance, and nothing in this literature led necesarily to making a dogmatic ideology out of republicanism. But there was a more immediate source of republican theory as well, one that was devoutly embraced by many in America. The intellectual genealogy of this position ran from the English Civil War - from the likes of James Harrington and Algernon Sidney - through Henry Neville to Charles Davenant, John Trenchard, and Thomas Gordon, to the Tory Oppositionists Henry St. John, First Viscount Bolingbroke, and from Bolingbroke to Montesquieu; and by the time Americans received it, it had hardened into a brittle ideology.

The principal articles of faith in the ideology included belief in the Anglo-Saxon myth (that England before the Norman Conquest had been Eden), a nostalgic yearning for the return of conditions imagined to have existed before the financial and ministerial revolutions engineered by Sir Robert Walpole, a strident hostility toward standing armies, the mystique of the soil, a rigid insistence upon the necessity of the separation of powers, and a belief that public virtue is the actuating principle of republics.

The checklist just recited contains much that is backward-looking, which may seem inconsistent with the concept of republican ideology as modernity. But the contradiction is only apparent, not real. Republican theory had been marked throughout its history by preoccupation with secular immortality, by a wild vacillation between profound pessimism - the conviction that republics have inherent flaws that inevitably make them fail in the long run-and a fervid hope that this time, at last, republicans will be able to correct the fatal flaws, establish the perfect commonwealth, and devise a republic that will survive eternally.

The parallel with millenialist theorizing is striking: millenialists likewise thought, "people have repeatedly failed to do so before, but now we know how to create the heavenly city on earth. Our predecessors in the endeavor are to be revered and emulated in most respects; only their errors are to be avoided. We shall achieve perfection by arranging a return to Eden." In its essence, that attitude is no different from looking forward in time to a classless, stateless paradise. Utopia is Utopia, no matter which end of the telescope one views it from.

In the shared exhilaration of the moment of independence, republican ideologues and conservatives failed to recognize - -indeed would have denied - that their positions were fundamentally different; but in fact they were more than different, they were irreconcilable.

The aim of conservatives was to protect liberty, both by limiting popular participation in government - they agreed with John Wesley's dictum that "the greater the share the people have in government, the less liberty, civil or religious, does a nation enjoy'' - and by insisting that there are large areas of human activity that are beyond the legitimate concern of government.

Underlying this position was the notion, ultimately Christian in origin, that government if limited was a necessary and desirable check upon man's ineradicable sinfulness, and another notion, worked out notably by Mandeville and Adam Smith, that a measure of individual corruption could lead to positive social good; the trick was to strike a subtle balance between the two.

All this was anathema to republican ideologues. Militant, conspiratorial, preoccupied with establishing a regime that would last forever, they were obsessed with a single goal, active participation by a virtuous and eternally vigilant public in the res publica, the public thing. And what was this public thing'? Because of the inner logic of the ideology, it was everything. The vital force, the life's blood, of a republic was public virtue; the fatal danger was the possibility of corruption. Anything, therefore, that was related to the inculcation in private individuals of either virtue or corruption was within the purview of public control. The republic made the virtuous individual, the virtuous individual made the republic. Inherently, then, republicanism was at least incipiently totalitarian.

Early American Crossroads After 1776 the United States might have gone either way, modernist or conservative: there was powerful support for both mindsets.

At first, in fact, the radical republican ideologues had the better of it. I say this not in reference to radical doctrines proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence, for, though that document can be read as Abraham Lincoln and Harry Jaffa have read it - as a ringing confirmation of natural rights ideology and the contract theory-it can quite as plausibly be read as a conservative reaffirmation of natural law principles, under which man has only such rights as are necessary to enable him to behave morally. Rather, I refer to the governmental arrangements established by the Articles of Confederation and the revolutionary state constitutions. For the most part, power was vested in unchecked state legislatures, participation in which was greatly expanded - though generally confined, Harrington style, to landowners - and there were in practice virtually no limits upon what those legislatures could do. Moreover, radical republicans dominated state governments most of the time during the decade after 1776, and while there was no Reign of Terror - -there could not be; America had no Paris - many thousands of innocent people lost their liberty and property, and some their lives, at the hands of arbitrary governments.

Reaction against the excesses committed by the thirteen American republics was enough to make possible the calling of the Philadelphia Convention of 1787. Moreover, the convention was dominated by men firmly committed to strengthening national authority and checking that of the states. The consensus, however, was strained by a number of tensions, including those between small and large states, between states having claims to western lands and those lacking such claims, and between various forms of economic interests. Most importantly, for our purposes, there was a tension between conservatives and republican ideologues, even though they seemed to be - indeed thought they were - in the same camp when the convention began.

Among the leading conservatives were Washington, Gouverneur and Robert Morris, John Rutledge, John Dickinson, Alexander Hamilton, Oliver Ellsworth, and Nathaniel Gorham. Among the leading republican ideologues were Edmund Randolph, George Mason, Elbridge Gerry, Luther Martin, James Wilson, and - yes - James Madison.

Conservatives Prevail at Philadelphia The conservatives recognized that their task was a delicate one. They knew that they must establish new and unfamiliar institutions, but they knew also that these must be formed from old and familiar materials. Nor were the materials promising. America lacked the kinds of institutions - monarchy, aristocracy, bishops, an established national church - which most Old World conservatives thought necessary to the preservation of the social order. Moreover, their customs, traditions, folkways, habits, and existing institutions were regional or local in orientation, not national. Even so, they rejected out of hand any notion of erecting the necessary new institutions upon abstract ideas and ideals.

The attitude of the ideologues was quite different. Convinced by recent experience that a national government was necessary, they had convinced themselves that it would be safe to create one. Most shared Wilson's position, that the keys would be to make each branch of the national government directly representative of the electorate and to erect walls of separation between the executive, legislative, and judicial powers. Most also believed that a bill of rights would be necessary, and some shared Mason's conviction that Congress should be empowered to pass sumptuary legislation-to police private morality in the interest of preserving public virtue.

Madison addressed the problem of virtue in a more complex way, proposing a two-part solution. The first part was the celebrated theory of Federalist 10 that the traditional bane of republics - factions of designing men who put their own interests ahead of those of the public - would pose no problem in the new national government because the size and diversity of the country, together with the complexity of the system, would prevent any faction from gaining control of the whole.

The other part of the solution was more subtle and more important. Suffused throughout Madison's Federalist essays is the argument that the elaborate constitutional structure provided a series of filters that would sift out the undeserving, so that none but the most virtuous would reach the top. The curse that had proved fatal to all earlier republics, the loss of virtue, would be solved for all time. One would not need a virtuous public, one would need only some virtuous men - and every society had some virtuous men.

Conservatives were able to dominate the convention because the clash of interests and ideas necessitated numerous compromises, and they were tempermentally adaptable to compromise whereas the ideologues were not.

As the Constitution turned out, it accomplished what the conservatives had set out to accomplish: it left intact the diverse social and political arrangements that had evolved and provided for additional institutions whose purpose was to check and channel local forces so they might flow harmoniously in the national interest.

The genius of the system was that the power of government, though great and emanating ultimately from the people, was divided rather than concentrated in any single representation of the people. Vertically, power was distributed among local, state, and national governments, the last itself being only "partly national, partly federal." Horizontally, power at the state level was subjected to certain restraints, particularly as regarded property rights; power at the national level was subjected to division among the branches and to checks, one branch on another. Temporally, the several branches of the national government were to be chosen variously for two, four, six years, and for life or good behavior, which meant that they would represent the will of the people, directly or indirectly, as expressed at different times.

Jefferson and Hamilton Fall Out The writing of the Constitution did not, of course, mean that the conservatives' triumph was a final one. Many republican ideologues, following the lead of Madison and Wilson, supported ratification; but as many, and perhaps more, joined state-oriented politicians in a desperate effort to prevent ratification, and having the inertia of the mass of voters on their side they came perilously close to succeeding. Soon afterward, ideologues of a different stripe, enthusiasts for the French Revolution, began to organize so-called Democratic Republican societies whose aim, if not to overthrow that Constitution, was something closely resembling that.

But the pivotal event in the regrouping of the republican ideologues was the decision in 1791 of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to organize a political party to oppose and ultimately undo the policies of the Washington administration - and, into the bargain, to transform the Constitution into something it was not.

The chief architect of the Washington administration's policies, and the chief target of Jefferson's and Madison's efforts, was Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton's fiscal system, which breathed life into the Constitution, was an example of conservatism - of constructive, prudential change - at its best. As Secretary of the Treasury Hamilton was assigned the task of devising a way to manage the staggering burden of public Revolutionary War debts. He had several options. The debts could be repudiated in whole or in part, but that would be both imprudent and immoral. They could be paid promptly and in full, but given the nation's limited resources that was impossible. Instead, Hamilton followed the British example and proposed to "fund" the debts in such a way as to make them the basis for banking currency, and thus to use them as material building- blocks for nationhood.

The essence of the Hamiltonian way was to make national authority dependent as little as possible upon coercion and as much as possible upon what economists call "the institutional structuring of market incentives. " He would ensure the perdurance of the new national government by making commercial activity dependent upon the continued working of the system. The long-range consequences of the adoption of Hamilton's program were profound, for they included committing not only American conservatives but also the United States government to capitalism - which, for all the Framers' insistence upon the sanctity of property rights, had been left open by the Constitution.

It was not until the spring of 1791, after Hamilton's system had been enacted into law, that Jefferson and Madison reacted to it ideologically. The break turned on one celebrated dinner party at which Jefferson, Hamilton, and Adams discussed political philosophy. Adams said that, "purge the British constitution of its corruption, and give to its popular branch equality of representation, and it would be the most perfect constitution ever devised by the wit of man. " Hamilton's retort, echoing an essay by Hume, was, "purge it of its corruption, - and give - to its popular branch equality of representation, and it would become an impracticable government: as it stands at present, with all its supposed defects, it is the most perfect government which ever existed."

When Jefferson heard that, his revulsion and fear were immediate and total. Forthwith, he was convinced that Hamilton had been "bewitched and perverted by the British example" and had formed a "mercenary phalanx" of money men and speculators in a conspiracy to poison America, even as Hamilton's evil idol Walpole had poisoned England. That this was pure fantasy is beside the point: to Jefferson it was real. Thenceforth, he saw Hamilton's every word and deed, past and present, as confirmation of his evil designs.

Jefferson's "discovery" radically changed Madison's perception of the Constitution. Heretofore the polestar of his political theory had been nationalism. But now, in light of Hamilton's supposed perfidy, Madison's dream of a perfect commonwealth was shattered: the safeguards that were to have ensured the republic's immortality proved illusory.

Thenceforth, the central constitutional tenet in the faith of the Republicans - I shift to the capital R, for Jefferson and Madison promptly set out to recruit like-minded souls to form the Republican Party-became the doctrine of state sovereignty (not states' rights; which is essential to the equilibrium of the federal system, but state sovereignty).

Two aspects of this shift want special notice. First, it is not out of character for secular millenialists to make 180-degree turns. They can, and often do, undergo conversion experiences that lead them to embrace a diametrically opposed ideology. The only change they are incapable of making is to stop being ideologues.

Secondly, there was a tangible political ingredient involved in the shift. State sovereignty in Virginia meant Republican power under the leadership of Madison and Jefferson. This was not incompatible with republican ideology, it was complementary. Now that the scales had fallen from Madisón's eyes he could see that the states must be sovereign, for only they were unencumbered by internal checks- and restraints, and thus only in them was the public (read, "the gentry") at liberty to do its republican duty.

Totalitarian Ideologues Then and Now When the Republicans spoke in praise of liberty, that was the kind of liberty they had in mind; even as, when they praised limited government, they were referring only to the national government. In regard to the "real" American republics, the sovereign states, they were totalitarian ideologues. In the words of Fisher Ames, "They cry liberty, but they mean, as party leaders always do, power. "

When the Republicans came to power in 1801 they set out to emasculate the national government, and for a time they were strikingly successful. They repealed much of the Federalists' legislation, set Hamilton's fiscal system in train toward extinction, virtually destroyed the government's capacity to enforce its laws, and (in a world aflame with war) reduced the army and navy to miniscule proportions. But they failed in their efforts to destroy the Supreme Court, of course, and soon the inner logic of their ideology led them first to a wholesale suppression of American liberty and then to a nearly disastrous war.

Jefferson's last fifteen months in office were a nightmare of repression: to carry out an experimental notion that belligerents in Europe could be subdued by peaceful means - the embargo - Jefferson found it necessary to wage war upon the American people. Three years later Madison blundered the nation into a war for which it was calamitously unprepared. Finally, having teamed the hard way that a country cannot fight wars without a government, the Republicans reluctantly put the whole Federalist system back together again.

The regime of liberty was back in place, and the republican dogma itself withered away. Dogmatic secular millenialism - modernity - did not, alas, die with it. It erupted with the Jacksonians, the abolitionists, the populists, the Wilsonians, the New Dealers, the Great Society. It erupts anew in the plague of isms that infests our own times.

Throughout our history, conservatism has been the fountain of liberty in America and modernity has been liberty's veriest enemy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the time of the original publication, Forrest McDonald was professor of history at the University of Alabama, as well as distinguished senior fellow at its Center for the Study of Southern History and Culture. A native Texan, Dr. McDonald completed his Ph.D. at the University of Texas in 1955. His books, scholarly articles, and reviews, more than 100 in all, have established him as one of the foremost interpreters of America's founding, American economic history, and the history of the presidency. His books on Washington, Jefferson, and Hamilton each were nominated for the Pulitzer Prize. Forrest McDonald worked closely with Professor John Willson, chairman of Hillsdale's division of history and political science, in planning the Center for Constructive Alternatives seminar where this paper was delivered as the keynote lecture on January 30, 1983. He and his wife, Ellen, were on campus throughout the seminar week for continuing contact with students and dialogue with the other scholars visiting Hillsdale to lecture on the overall topic, "America Confronts Modernization: A Conservative View of the American Heritage. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reprinted by permission from Imprimis, the monthly journal of Hillsdale College. July 1983, Vol. 12, No. 3.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: conservative; founding; mcdonald; roots; tradition
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1 posted on 05/21/2002 5:44:16 PM PDT by aconservaguy
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To: aconservaguy
Far be it from me to quarrel with the learned historian, but I don't think his representation of Madison is fair or accurate. Jefferson was a radical, no question. Madison and Jefferson were allies, this is true. They did not like or trust Hamilton, and there is evidence they had good reason not to trust him. But while Madison is closely associated with Jefferson, Madison's views were fairly consistent from '1787 all the way to 1830. IMHO. He was no radical, and he did not champion "state sovereignty" over any other form. He advocated his whole life for the system he helped build, which was one of mixed soveriegnty.

Check this out:

Madison's letter to Everett, 1830

2 posted on 05/21/2002 5:56:37 PM PDT by Huck
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To: rdf
Check this out
3 posted on 05/21/2002 6:22:21 PM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
Thanks.

It's beautiful.

Richard F.

4 posted on 05/21/2002 6:35:52 PM PDT by rdf
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To: KC Burke
You might find this interesting.
5 posted on 05/21/2002 7:04:24 PM PDT by Huck
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To: aconservaguy
Conservative attitudes toward morality give rise to a profound concern for the necessity of freedom.

. . .

The aim of conservatives was to protect liberty,

I understand him to be casting the Federalists as the "conservatives" here. I'm not sure that "liberty," "freedom," or the "rule of law" were the objectives that the Federalists had in mind when, during the Adams presidency, they enacted the Sedition Act just a few years after the adoption of the First Amendment. Maybe I'm missing his point.

6 posted on 05/21/2002 7:29:27 PM PDT by ned
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To: aconservaguy
Looks fascinating but a tough read. "Incipiently totalitarian" seems too strong. But it is true that people tend to presume that their own path is that of liberty and progress and that of the opposing side is always that of dictatorship and darkness. The problem is that terror and obscurantism can arise from a variety of different ideological orientations and backgrounds.

Jefferson's own affection for the French Revolution explains the distrust many Founders had for him, and gives us ample reason to question the "good Jeffersonian" versus "bad Hamiltonian" view of American history. To be sure there were virtues in Jeffersonianism and dangers in Hamiltonianism. But the reverse was also true.

The article provides a good corrective to the naive worship of Jefferson. But America does benefit from the tension between Jefferson and Hamilton. Hamilton set the country on a safe path, but pure Hamiltonianism would also have been undesirable.

By the same token, republicanism is a double-edged sword. It did harken back to classical antiquity. And it did strengthen the defense of the people's liberties. But McDonald is right that there was something ferocious and utopian about it. The idea of recurrent revolutions and secessions, and "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants" every generation is not, strictly speaking, a conservative idea.

The idea of republicanism as a modernism is an intriguing one. It's something that should be explored further. But it's worth noting that ideologies were very much mixed together in those days. In time of crisis, political figures naturally strained to strike republican poses, which they relaxed when tensions eased.

Englishmen looking back over to their own Civil War commonly took it as a victory of liberty against tyranny or, less commonly, as a defeat of tradition by modernity. What we can see now is that liberty, tyranny, modernity and tradition present in both camps. Not always to the same degree, of course. There were reasons why one fought on this side or that. There is a lot at stake in such struggles and sometimes the balance of the evil is on one side.

But the idea that all has to do is pick up the banner of Cromwell or Charles, Jefferson or Hamilton to automatically be right in all subsequent political conflicts is a mistake. I don't know how far I'd go with McDonald, but his article is a potent corrective to much of what one reads about the early years of our nation's history.

7 posted on 05/21/2002 8:08:24 PM PDT by x
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To: Huck
Wow. I had never read this lecture. It is masterful.

We do have to acknowledge that Forrest is the supreme Hamilton biographer. He may see motives and motivation in Hamilton due to his depths of study that few other would. While never thinking of him as the monarchist that some make him out to be, there was as much the Tory in him as the Burkeian "Old Whig".

I will need to look back at last year's reading of The Last of the Fathers, a new bio of Madison to see if I can get it in context with some of this.

Certain items in this, I note, are repetitions of points made repeatedly by Russell Kirk, particularly the linking of the Lockeian rationalism as outside of the Burkeian Conservative strain and the organization and depiction of conservative principles in general.

8 posted on 05/23/2002 8:49:42 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: Bonaparte; Cornelis; betty boop
you might get a kick out of this one
9 posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:36 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: x
The idea of recurrent revolutions and secessions, and "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants" every generation is not, strictly speaking, a conservative idea.

You can say that again.

10 posted on 05/23/2002 9:43:36 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: aconservaguy
The parallel with millenialist theorizing is striking: millenialists likewise thought, "people have repeatedly failed to do so before, but now we know how to create the heavenly city on earth. Our predecessors in the endeavor are to be revered and emulated in most respects; only their errors are to be avoided. We shall achieve perfection by arranging a return to Eden." In its essence, that attitude is no different from looking forward in time to a classless, stateless paradise. Utopia is Utopia, no matter which end of the telescope one views it from.

Interesting statement. It suggests that the only anti-dote to utopian dreams slipping in and out of our contemporary pundits (LewRockwell.com) is an historical understanding of millenialism. There's homework.

11 posted on 05/23/2002 9:43:53 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: aconservaguy
Inherently, then, republicanism was at least incipiently totalitarian.

I could see how one comes to say this. The less we understand "millenialist", the less humble every political enterprise becomes, modernist or not.

12 posted on 05/23/2002 9:46:37 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: KC Burke
Suffused throughout Madison's Federalist essays is the argument that the elaborate constitutional structure provided a series of filters that would sift out the undeserving, so that none but the most virtuous would reach the top.

Well, gee... that little "pipe dream" didn't seem to work out too well, did it, KC? Funny how "theory" succumbs to reality sooner or later, and probably sooner, in the degree that the theorist regards actual experience -- personal, social, and historical -- as outmoded and therefore "irrelevant" to his theoretical problems.

Our modernist and post-modernist ideologues are seemingly united in believing that the only way to make anything "new" (e.g., a "perfect society") is to simply clear the decks of everything "old." But this never works in the long run: Reality is just too stubborn.

Thanks for the heads-up to this "meaty" essay, KC Burke. Bookmarked for later study. best, bb.

13 posted on 05/23/2002 11:02:21 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
I don't see the use of the words regarding "filtering" as heavily laden with import as you do. We weren't looking for either a pure democracy or an hereditary aristocracy by such structures.

The filtering process of the Federalist was the accross the board understanding of how to create an upper house in congress ( a sea anchor sort of body) and how to have a President not beholden to a segment of the country or elected as a popular demogogue. In sum, all the dangers read in populist democractic regimes up until their time.

Since then, with expansion of the franchise and liberalizing of the participation of the electorate in determining representation, we have had a slow, gradual, change to our structure today -- all without revolution or upheavel on these matters. Very conservative and prudent change, albeit not without flaws.

14 posted on 05/23/2002 11:13:09 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: x
The idea of republicanism as a modernism is an intriguing one. It's something that should be explored further. But it's worth noting that ideologies were very much mixed together in those days. In time of crisis, political figures naturally strained to strike republican poses, which they relaxed when tensions eased.

I think it is not so much the republicanism of the founders that he is casting in that light. but, instead, the (Jeffersonian) Republicanism of Jefferson, Madison and those that followed after the demise of strong Federalists right up until the Jeffersonian Republicans became the Jacksonian Democrat-Republicans.

15 posted on 05/23/2002 11:18:50 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: ned
As counter-point to the Federalist over reaction with the Sedition Act, didn't we have a Jefferson camp virtualy wanting to rework our recent creation to match the new French model?

My reading is that excess on both sides was high.

16 posted on 05/23/2002 11:22:09 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: aconservaguy
Thanks for a great post. It never ceases to amaze me how informative Free Republic is.
17 posted on 05/23/2002 12:01:00 PM PDT by MattinNJ
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To: KC Burke; cornelis; beckett; Phaedrus; insight; Huck;
...with expansion of the franchise and liberalizing of the participation of the electorate in determining representation, we have had a slow, gradual, change to our structure today -- all without revolution or upheavel on these matters. Very conservative and prudent change, albeit not without flaws.

Hi KC! The thought has struck me that the "expansion of the franchise and liberalizing of the participation of the electorate in determining representation" has had highly revolutionary effects on the social fabric and the evolution of political institutions. Though it is anathema these days to suggest it, we'd probably be a whole lot better off as a nation if the franchise were limited to those who could meet some type of property qualification, and/or pass a literacy test.

This suggestion more than likely wouldn't serve the ideologue's purpose, which is to "perfect society" according to his dreams. But it sure seems to reflect the facts of social reality, given that societies are composed of men, and men -- even "virtuous" men -- are flawed creatures.

The idea that a just and free political society can be constructed out of a tiny minority of virtuous men is patently laughable. In any event, a broad franchise would be unlikely to elect virtuous men. If anything, contemporary voter tastes seem to run in the other direction. But if it did, those "virtuous men" sooner or later, virtually inevitably, would be forced to adopt tyrannical measures, for the unvirtuous would probably not be eager to follow their lead without "incentives" to do so.

The student of history may have noticed a very stubborn fact about political societies, well-known since the time of Plato at least: Political societies are only as good as the "general level of attainment" of the men who comprise them. If most men lack virtue, there's nothing government can do to make a just or good society, let alone one that would "last forever."

Whatever. The problem is, regardless of whether the franchise is restricted or expansive, it seems to me that no "perfect societies" will likely result. The millenialist tendency MacDonald discusses here assumes that man is capable of self-perfection. As Voegelin has put it, it's an exercise in intramundane eschatology (i.e., human "self-salvation") whose real objective, when you boil it all down, is political power for the millenialist thinker.

I just loved his comment that the one thing an ideologue cannot do is to cease being an ideologue (to paraphrase).

Thanks for writing, KC. This has been a great discussion for far. best, bb.

18 posted on 05/23/2002 12:10:41 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: cornelis
It suggests that the only anti-dote to utopian dreams slipping in and out of our contemporary pundits (LewRockwell.com) is an historical understanding of millenialism. There's homework.

It is certainly homework for me.

19 posted on 05/23/2002 12:31:31 PM PDT by Huck
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To: KC Burke
, the (Jeffersonian) Republicanism of Jefferson, Madison and those that followed after the demise of strong Federalists

Do you really think it makes sense to lump Madison in with Jefferson without any qualification at all?

20 posted on 05/23/2002 12:39:04 PM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
I think that in the political rhealm, Madison lumped himself into the Jeffersonians. All that was good in Jefferson, he kept. The bad, the excessive, the conspiring against Washington, the idealistic Francophile, etc, he ignored and excused.

Madison was the younger, practical, alter-ego of Jefferson in political party matters as far as I've read. Certainly, as each was in office, they acted as individuals, but there was never the divide that Jefferson had with many others.

Madison had this realism insitlled within him as he was "on the ground" creating the constitution through prudent compromise and the "art of the possible" while Jefferson was off being the toast of Paris. Jefferson felt that Madison and others had done as well as they could in those compromises and didn't oppose the adoption of the constitution.

21 posted on 05/23/2002 1:31:05 PM PDT by KC Burke
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To: Huck
Of course, keep in mind that I am just a general reader and common freeper, with no training in law, history, politics or other fields of scholarship. I'm sure that the truely trained can put more detail into this than I can.

But, in the long run, what are we but a nation of common men, with all the good and bad lumped together as Betty Boop points out.

22 posted on 05/23/2002 1:34:29 PM PDT by KC Burke
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To: All
Forrest McDonald has a lot of great books available in trade paperback....check the history section. I have two on my shelf.
23 posted on 05/23/2002 1:36:37 PM PDT by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
Of course, keep in mind that I am just a general reader and common freeper, with no training in law, history, politics or other fields of scholarship.

The standard disclaimer :-) Believe me, I understand what you mean. I keep that in mind about myself all the time.

I think that in the political rhealm, Madison lumped himself into the Jeffersonians. All that was good in Jefferson, he kept. The bad, the excessive, the conspiring against Washington, the idealistic Francophile, etc, he ignored and excused.

It's the standard critique of Madison. I can't argue with it, as a political fact. But ideologically, Madison was at bottom a Federalist, wasn't he? Look at what he did.

24 posted on 05/23/2002 1:50:30 PM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
Madison was a Democrat-Republican party man....never a Federalist in the sense of being in the Federalist Party which rose from pro-constitutional roots after Washington's term. In Madison's election, the Federalists voted against him but by 1816 they were done as a national force and totally vanished by 1828 even from State campaigns.
25 posted on 05/23/2002 2:12:34 PM PDT by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
Well, I guess I am just wrong. But when I read Madison's work in the Federalist papers, or even his letters to Jefferson, or his later writings regarding nullification and secession, he seems to me to be consistently federalist philosophically, unless I am misusing the term. Whereas Jefferson was much more likely to write something crazy, like saying that a government should only be binding on those who were alive when it was formed. Madison didn't go for that sort of thing.

But I guess I just don't know enough about the actual politics of the day. And anyway, I suppose this is a sidebar to the aspect of the article that most folks have found interesting, so I will let it go. Thanks for the reply.

26 posted on 05/23/2002 7:05:11 PM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
Interesting paper on Madison here. It argues for a consistency in Madison's ideas throughout his lifetime.

I suspect Madison was drawn to Jefferson because of commmon regional background, because Madison's constitutents were mostly Jeffersonian, and because Madison distrusted Hamilton's arrogance and ambition. Once the Federalist "conspiracy" was vanquished, Jefferson and Madison were less scrupulous about 'strict constructionism.'

What's distinctive about the founders is the mixture of exceptionally high level political theory with the practical belief that political evil could be isolated in this or that conspiracy or faction. Practical politics accustomed them to think in party terms, and the responsibilities of office demanded that they take a more realistic attitude about the Constitution than they had in opposition.

27 posted on 05/23/2002 9:24:35 PM PDT by x
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To: KC Burke
There's a trick involved in the word "republicanism." It may mean the kind of balanced and limited representative government created by the Constitution. It can also mean an ideology, sometimes called civic or classical republicanism or country ideology, that seeks to create a virtuous society, fears corruption and power to a much greater degree and stresses vigilance, self-discipline and self-denial. This is where Jefferson got some of his ideas, as did Robespierre. There is a good deal of overlap between the two republicanisms in things like the separation and division of powers, though it's true that French revolutionary republicanism ended by by recreating absolute power supposedly to serve the interests of virtue, liberty and equality. In any event, some academics use "republicanism" mostly to refer to this austere and radical ideology, rather than to the ordinary workings of American government. They also make use of the contrast between freedom-centered "liberal republicanism" as a counterweight to virtue-centered "classical republicanism" or "civic republicanism."
28 posted on 05/23/2002 9:54:11 PM PDT by x
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To: x
I like the title (James Madison: Federalist) . I am going to take this with me on the bus this am. Looks interesting. I admit I for whatever reason sort of "root" for Madison. I am much more sympathetic to him than I am to Jefferson. In my view, Jefferson was a bad influence on him. But I am going to try to be fair, not biased in Madison's favor, and see what I can learn. Thanks for the link.
29 posted on 05/24/2002 3:33:48 AM PDT by Huck
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To: aconservaguy
bump
30 posted on 05/24/2002 3:43:11 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: x
Englishmen looking back over to their own Civil War commonly took it as a victory of liberty against tyranny or, less commonly, as a defeat of tradition by modernity. What we can see now is that liberty, tyranny, modernity and tradition present in both camps.

I agree, it seems to be a vice of historians, that they see their job as the resolute rationalization of mere chronology into a regular declension of causes and effects, and to sort hideously complex "event-clusters" into easily understood memetic jousting matches.

But the idea that all has to do is pick up the banner of Cromwell or Charles, Jefferson or Hamilton to automatically be right in all subsequent political conflicts is a mistake.

The descent of Barry Goldwater from Jefferson not Washington is easily shown by his dictum, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice". He and the conservative wing of the Republican Party are descended from the Jeffersonian and Jacksonian Democrats who were exiled from the Democratic Party by the triumph of the race-pimps and Fabian Socialists in 1928, and FDR's conversion of the party into a socialist machine a la Tammany Hall (which FDR and Al Smith both knew well).

So the GOP has a split personality, being partly descended from the Federalist business interests and planters of the 1780's and partly from the Jeffersonians and their sturdy yeomen. Forrest McDonald would seem to sympathize with the former, the party of business oligarchy, whose highest value is "keep your hands off my stack", which they interpret as "liberty". His sympathy is understandable; as a professor at the University of Texas, where the Texas barons send their sons to be educated, he is a courtier of their regime, which has enjoyed uninterrupted control of the state since the end of Reconstruction, and which very much celebrates inequality, perquisite, and privilege. Or as LBJ told the state trooper who stopped him, who involuntarily blurted out "My God!" when he realized who he had stopped, "That's right -- and don't you forget it!"

31 posted on 05/24/2002 4:38:02 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: x
.....it's true that French revolutionary republicanism ended by by recreating absolute power supposedly to serve the interests of virtue, liberty and equality.

Jefferson was a great admirer of Napoleon Bonaparte. He placed a small bust of Napoleon in Monticello. It's still there.

32 posted on 05/24/2002 4:40:56 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: aconservaguy
But the pivotal event in the regrouping of the republican ideologues was the decision in 1791 of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to organize a political party to oppose and ultimately undo the policies of the Washington administration - and, into the bargain, to transform the Constitution into something it was not. [Emphasis added.]

Is he referring here to the Bill of Rights?!

33 posted on 05/24/2002 4:46:01 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: betty boop
Though it is anathema these days to suggest it, we'd probably be a whole lot better off as a nation if the franchise were limited to those who could meet some type of property qualification, and/or pass a literacy test.

What about membership in the New York Athletic Club? That'd be a pretty good proxy.

But please explain why you think that what you say is true. If the (Republican) U.S. Government, in the 1920's, hadn't moved to break up the holdings of the heirs of J.P. Morgan, who were discovered by a Congressional inquiry to control or beneficially own 20% of everything that was worth anything in the United States, how far do you think the concentration would have gone by now, 75 years later?

How do you think we would be better off under such a regime, which even as late as the 1920's, had successfully resisted labor syndicalism's demands that the people who ran Morgan's companies for him equitably share with the workers the great productivity of their labor? Milton Friedman said it on national television: if there had been no labor-syndicalist movement, there would have been no middle class. How well off do you think you'd be, if you were still working for 1920's wages? I think $60/week was common then, as a good wage. How would you send your kids to college, so they could break out of the "lower class"?

I don't think I agree with you, sorry. Too many of McDonald's descriptors of "conservatism" have altogether too much to do with preserving privilege, classism, and perquisite. Or do you think that everyone outside the charmed circle of Fortune 500 heirs and heiresses should be re-proletarized? Bat that one around for a while -- it's implied by your statement of preference.

34 posted on 05/24/2002 5:01:37 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: lentulusgracchus
Bat that one around for a while -- it's implied by your statement of preference.

It wasn't a "statement of preference." It was an observation. I'm not a constitution writer, nor a system builder, and have zero interest in that sort of thing. But, if I were "the king," dictator or tyrant, I'd take the Constitution we have (after purging it of every Amendment other than the original ten) and I'd say, "Here it is, kids: The law of the land. Them's the new rules, so don't you go messing them up." That is to say, I like the Constitution of the United States that the Framers wrote, exactly as they wrote it, just fine, and deeply resent how little it is respected these days.

Notice that under "my regime" the determination of qualifications for the exercise of the franchise are left to the several states.

I don't see how the labor movement per se and exercise of the franchise per se are necessarily related or mutually interdependent. It seems to me there are sources of social power that do not depend on the ballot box for their effectiveness. Though I have noticed that, these days, it is fashionable to politicize everything.

And what we seem to have gotten from that is endless, one-size-fits-all rules for specifying just about everything in human life. One key by-product of the universal franchise seems to have been the creation of a mass, totally homogenized, and highly regimented society.

I've got to go to work now, though there's more I'd like to add. Maybe later. Thank you for writing, lentulusgracchus. best, bb

36 posted on 05/24/2002 6:34:57 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: Huck
First of all, in the sense of being one of the authors of the Federalist Papers and urging the adoption of the constitution, Madison was certainly a "federalist" in that sense. During the Washington Administration, within his cabinet, there arose two factions. One, headed by Hamilton, became the Federalist Party. The other, headed by Jefferson, Madison and others became the (Jeffersonian) Repulicans, who later morfed into the democratic-Republicans. Much of the short history of the Federalist Party was then tied up in the personality of Hamilton, soon to pass from the scene. The Bank and the French made up the chief areas of conflict between these two factions which grew into full fledged Parties active on State as well as Federal levels.

Adams, as VP stayed above the fray, but became the focus of Federalist support.

When we talk of the Age of Federalism, we are speaking of the time from Washington's administration's second term to, say, the election of Jefferson.

37 posted on 05/24/2002 7:14:46 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: x
Agreed. Thanks for your insight.
38 posted on 05/24/2002 7:25:18 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
Weird the way things turn. You have the Federalists passing the Alien and Sedition Acts. Then you have Madison and Jefferson writing the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, protesting the acts. Later, you have Madison as President, waging the War of 1812. If I am not mistaken, a large part of the demise of the Federalists was their reaction to the War of 1812, particularly the Hartford Convention, where they contemplated the idea of secession. The war is won, and a hero is created, named Andrew Jackson. The Federalists go extinct. Madison, because of the war, forms the first standing army and reauthorizes the same National Bank that caused him such a coniption fit when he was in Congress. Jackson later becomes President and denounces nullification, a theory that South Carolina justified by pointing to the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions. Meanwhile, Madison, as an old man, writes letters which show him to be opposed to both nullification and secession, and he does a fair job of laying it out, but it's too late. What will be will be. The nullification theory and the secession theory come back, as justification for the full split of the Union, and here comes Lincoln and the war.

I mean, you look at that. The causes and effects. It's just plain wacky.

39 posted on 05/24/2002 5:59:59 PM PDT by Huck
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To: lentulusgracchus
Goldwater performed a valuable service for the GOP and the USA. It's hard to imagine the Liberal Rockefeller-Scranton-Percy wing of the GOP providing effective oppostiton, let alone dominating the political scene as Reagan and Bush have. And given how centralizing the Democrats have been, it's hard to see how or why the GOp would want to compete with them in that department.

But I don't think LBJ was very Hamiltonian, though Michael Lind tries to make him out to be. Hamilton would have been very dubious about Johnson's "Great Society." Rather Johnson fits into that Democratic party tradition of the Big Man or the boss going back to Jackson and Van Buren. During and after the New Deal, Washington was full of latter-day Jeffersonians, Jacksonians, agrarians and populists who retained the old demagogic rhetoric but became willing servitors of big government and big business.

McDonald goes too far in this article, but I'm not so hard on him. His career began with the study of men like Hamilton and utilities mogul Samuel Insull who built up the country and its economy over the opposition of demagogues and politicians. For better and for worse, Hamilton and his heirs did promote economic development in ways that Jeffersonians never did. Given Jefferson's agrarianism and the state sovereigntism and opposition to big business of his successors, would our country have become the economic powerhouse that it did as quickly as it did?

If Hamiltonianism is enjoying a renaissance it may be due to the rise of the global economy. The corporations that Hamiltonians promoted have become quite powerful and free of any national loyalties. While the power of government is still the main cause for worry, the nation-state may provide a means to check or deflect global corporate power.

40 posted on 05/24/2002 8:40:59 PM PDT by x
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To: x
bump for later
41 posted on 05/24/2002 8:50:08 PM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Huck
Madison also takes his lumps in Rockwellite Di Lorenzo's articles. It seems he was too moderate for both sides. But such a moderate course was a good way, maybe the only way, to preserve liberty and build a nation. At first, Madison's idea of the extended republic looks like the beginnings of today's federal megagovernment. But I think you have to look at it in the context of his times. The alternative of keeping the states as separate little pools of absolute sovereignty would have been worse for the country and for liberty.

Madison is a very intriguing figure. The papers of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln have largely been digitized by the Library of Congress, the University of Virginia and the University of Michigan. Madison would be a good next choice, as would Adams or Hamilton.

Here's another article that addresses Madison's constitutional theory.

42 posted on 05/25/2002 10:44:13 AM PDT by x
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To: x
I read the article you linked to the other day about Madison. Based on what I know, Madison is not fully appreciated or understood. For me, he is the authoritative expert on our system of government. I don't mean that in the usual blase manner (Madison's the father of the Constitution, yadda yadda). I mean there is no one else who was involved in the period who explained the system as thoroughly, as consistently, and as fairly as Madison did. If there is anyone else, someone let me know.

Incidentally, if the Federalist party went extinct after its dumb flirtation with secesion doctrine, and if the Democrat-Republicans of Jefferson and Madison became Jacksonian Democrats, who spawned John C. Calhoun? Or did he spawn himself? As I recall, Georgia and South Carolina were the fire eaters at the Constitutional Convention. I don't recall who the delgates were, but perhaps they are the orginators of Calhounism, and subsequently, DiLorenzoism. Any thoughts?

43 posted on 05/25/2002 6:37:38 PM PDT by Huck
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To: x
I just reed the latest article you linked, the Fielding article. It affirmed many of my own intuitions. It is my impression that Lincoln was Madisonian. I have thought that ever since I began studying them.
44 posted on 05/25/2002 7:07:45 PM PDT by Huck
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To: betty boop
But, if I were "the king," dictator or tyrant...

Makes me chuckle. I was out fishing today with my wife at a state park, and while walking along a footpath, we heard a boy call out to his mother, "Mommy, Mommy, I am King of the Universe!" There, I thought to myself, is where the trouble begins. :-)

45 posted on 05/25/2002 7:11:17 PM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
I don't know the details about the Hartford Convention and how serious the Federalists were about secession in 1814 and earlier, but you're right that the dalliance with disunion killed off the party. They weren't able to overcome the bad publicity in the way that Jefferson overcame his identification with the French Revolution.

The Federalists, though, were already on the skids when the War of 1812 started. Perhaps at some point they figured they would never win the Presidency again, and fell back on just being the voice of New England, so secession followed as a consequence of the abandonment of the Middle States to the Democratic-Republicans. Our system works best when parties compete in all regions of the country, but it's always turned out that party divisions tended to reflect regional fissures.

Calhoun was actually a fiery War Hawk and young nationalist in 1812. His transformation is another topic that could be examined more closely. I suspect that he was so nationalistic because he came from the upcountry, where settlement had been comparatively recent and identification with new states like Tennessee and Kentucky was strong. As the frontier moved West and memories of frontier days and wild Scots Irishmen faded and plantation culture grew stronger, it was natural that the men of central South Carolina would look more to Charleston and less to the West. There must have been some pan-Western feeling that tied those who lived beyond the Eastern seaboard together in the early years of the republic. As settlement grew thicker, the differences between North and South increased.

I don't know the details about the Convention, but as I recall, South Carolina and Georgia were always the "odd men out." Virginia acted as mediator between them and the other states to hold the compromises over slavery together. I don't think it was that SC and GA had a highly developed state's rights ideology -- there were some people in many states who did -- but they did want to ensure that the Federal government would do as little as possible about internal matters like slavery. Supposedly, Charleston had close ties to the West Indies, and thus was always a little out of step with the rest of the country.

Madison's records of the Conventions debates are on the web -- http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/debcont.htm http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0000.htm -- but it can be hard to get into the transcript format.

46 posted on 05/25/2002 7:20:03 PM PDT by x
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To: Huck
One of the more ironic lessons to be learned from studying history is the "law of unintended consequences" combined with "for every action there is a reaction".

It has taught me to be much more careful in for what I wish, and to be very grateful for FR.

47 posted on 05/25/2002 7:55:58 PM PDT by muleboy
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To: Huck
Makes me chuckle. I was out fishing today with my wife at a state park, and while walking along a footpath, we heard a boy call out to his mother, "Mommy, Mommy, I am King of the Universe!" There, I thought to myself, is where the trouble begins. :-)

Dear Huck, did you think for a moment that I was advancing a "preference" here? I know very well that the scenario I laid out is completely unrealizable in our present day and age. There is no way to go home again, as the story goes.

If a tyrant such as I claimed to be were ever to do such a thing as I "proposed" in my last, there would be great wailing and knashing of teeth abroad in the land; millions of people employed in the "complaince business" -- mainly lawyers and tax accountants and professional consultants specializing in the regulatory field -- would have to find higher value jobs; and teachers would actually be required to master their subjects before imparting them to our young; the professional tax consumers organizations would be out of work; etc., etc., yada yada yada. So it would never happen. (This list is very, very long.)

Yet zillions of federal statutes instantly would fall off the books under my little scenario, lacking a bona fide constitutional warrent.

Not to mention that any such tyrant or dictator in America to impose such a regime as that contemplated by the Framers would be almost instantly assassinated.

Huck, I think you may have missed my point altogether. best, bb.

48 posted on 05/25/2002 10:33:33 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Huck, I think you may have missed my point altogether. best, bb.

You misunderstood me. I don't believe you are plotting to become a dictator. It just strikes me that the notion--what if I were king--occurs naturally in humans. You were speaking hypothetically, I know. The boy in the park was being fanciful. But 1000 years from now, no matter what system humans live under, it seems to me boys will still be fancying themselves omnipotent rulers, the idea will live on. You can't get rid of it. Your turn of phrase sparked that thought in me, that's all. I don't take you for a would be tyrant. It's just natural that a person doesn't say, "If I were chief magistrate and held a solid majority in both houses...". C'mon. The notion is funny.

49 posted on 05/26/2002 7:18:32 AM PDT by Huck
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To: Huck
The boy in the park was being fanciful. But 1000 years from now, no matter what system humans live under, it seems to me boys will still be fancying themselves omnipotent rulers, the idea will live on. You can't get rid of it.

Yeah Huck. It seems human nature remains fairly constant from eon to eon. Which fact seems to constitute some legitimate ground for suspicion that the macro-Darwinists may not have gotten their particular case “right” from the git-go.…

You suggest that the will to dominate is a naturally occurring condition in many if not most human persons. You may very well be right about this. I personally know all kinds of people from lived life (i.e., from daily experience) who, already having everything they could possibly need or want, still would not ever rest satisfied unless or until absolutely everybody else “agreed with them” about whatever seemed important to them….

I’m glad for your “flight of fancy,” in which you seem to lay down the law of human nature. To which I would add, in my particular rendition of a “flight of fancy”: a few lines from Kate Hepburn, in the film The African Queen: “Human nature is what we’re put here to rise above.”

Dunno why, but I have always liked that line, delighting in its highly serious humor.

Best to Huck with thanks, bb.

50 posted on 05/28/2002 2:21:09 PM PDT by betty boop
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