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1 posted on 05/25/2002 11:28:01 AM PDT by grundle
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To: grundle
Kyoto Paradox I:
Climate is an extremely complex, chaotic, coupled, non-linear, time-dependent system
with massive, external, naturally-occuring inputs and wide variability in measurables.
Therefore,
To say we can control it by tweaking a small set of factors is ridiculous on its face.

Kyoto Paradox II:
Climate is an extremely complex, chaotic, coupled, non-linear, time-dependent system
with massive, external, naturally-occuring inputs and wide variability in measurables.
Therefore,
You can no more successfully predict the outcome of doing something than you can of
not doing something. In other words, the impact of trying to "fix" a climate problem
is as unpredictable as the impact of ignoring it.
2 posted on 05/25/2002 11:43:26 AM PDT by My Identity
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To: grundle
Instead, their true goal is to have the government take control of the economy.

I believe the true goal of Kyoto was to encourage first world factory owners and corporations to close down all first world factories and reincorporate in China and India, which are exempt from Kyoto. Europe and North America were to become nice green giant parks, while the Third World countries were to get all the ugly factories. And this would have the added benefit of not only providing jobs for Third Worlders at the expense of the current factory workers, it would devastate the lives of the First World workers, who (as all good leftists know) are all a buncha racistsexistxenophobic Archie Bunker types anyway. People so retrograde deserve to starve, right? Plus, if the First World is then dependent on the Third World for all manufactured goods, that could only helpin the current effort to empower the Third World and enableit to form a OWG via the UN. But more likely, the sort of peoplewho support Kyoto are blind to the implications of no manufacturing in the EU or US : They just think it's possible to keep their standard of living by shoving all those ugly factories where they won't have to see them. Continent-wide gentrification!

3 posted on 05/25/2002 12:29:24 PM PDT by kaylar
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To: grundle
Substitute: The State of California AB 1058 for the Kyoto Treaty in this article and it gives the Voters in California an idea of where the State of California ( Gray Davis ) is comming from.

There is no difference in the philosophy.

.02 cents per mile driven, .50 cents increase in gas tax, 55mph highway speed limit. $3500 surcharge on SUVS, light trucks, and sportcars.

All in the name of reducing CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS?

GO BILL SIMON

4 posted on 05/25/2002 3:38:18 PM PDT by BIGZ
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To: grundle
"Right now, Mars is experiencing global warming."

And Triton, Neptune's moon, is experiencing unprecidented and rapid warming. Triton is about 1.7 billion miles thataway:

Link

(This was the subject of my very first post on FR!)

MIT researcher finds evidence of global warming on Neptune's largest moon

JUNE 24, 1998
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- We're not the only ones experiencing global warming. A Massachusetts Institute of Technology researcher has reported that observations obtained by NASA's Hubble Space Telescope and ground-based instruments reveal that Neptune's largest moon, Triton, seems to have heated up significantly since the Voyager space probe visited it in 1989. The warming trend is causing part of Triton's surface of frozen nitrogen to turn into gas, thus making its thin atmosphere denser.

While no one is likely to plan a summer vacation on Triton, this report in the June 25 issue of the journal Nature by MIT astronomer James L. Elliot and his colleagues from MIT, Lowell Observatory and Williams College says that the moon is approaching an unusually warm summer season that only happens once every few hundred years. Elliot and his colleagues believe that Triton's warming trend could be driven by seasonal changes in the absorption of solar energy by its polar ice caps.

"At least since 1989, Triton has been undergoing a period of global warming. Percentage-wise, it's a very large increase," said Elliot, professor of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences and director of the Wallace Astrophysical Observatory. The 5 percent increase on the absolute temperature scale from about minus-392 degrees Fahrenheit to about minus-389 degrees Fahrenheit would be like the Earth experiencing a jump of about 22 degrees Fahrenheit.

Triton is a simpler subject than Earth for studying the causes and effects of global warming. "It's generally true around the solar system that when we try to understand a problem as complex as global warming -- one in which we can't control the variables -- the more extreme cases we have to study, the more we can become sure of certain factors," Elliot said. "With Triton, we can clearly see the changes because of its simple, thin atmosphere."

The moon is approaching an extreme southern summer, a season that occurs every few hundred years. During this special time, the moon's southern hemisphere receives more direct sunlight. The equivalent on Earth would be having the sun directly overhead at noon north of Lake Superior during a northern summer.

Elliot and his colleagues believe that Triton's temperature has increased because of indications that the pressure of the atmosphere has increased. Because of the unusually strong correlation between Triton's surface ice temperature and its atmospheric pressure, Elliot said scientists can infer a temperature increase of 3 degrees Fahrenheit over nine years based on its recent increase in surface vapor pressure. Any ice on Triton that warms up a little results in a big increase in atmospheric pressure as the vaporized gas joins the atmosphere.

Scientists used one of the Hubble telescope's three Fine Guidance Sensors in November 1997 to measure Triton's atmospheric pressure when the moon passed in front of a star. Two of Hubble's guidance sensors are normally used to keep the telescope pointed at a celestial target by monitoring the brightness of guide stars. The third can serve as a scientific instrument.

In this case, the guidance sensor measured a star's gradual decrease in brightness as Triton passed in front of it. The starlight got dimmer as it traveled through Triton's thicker atmosphere and then got cut off completely by the moon's total occultation of the star. This filtering of starlight through an atmosphere is similar to what happens during a sunset. As the sun dips toward the horizon, its light dims because it is traveling through denser air and because the sun's disk gets "squashed."

By detecting that Triton's atmosphere had thickened, astronomers were able to deduce that the temperature of the ice on Triton's surface has increased. "This pressure increase implies a temperature increase," Elliot wrote. "At this rate, the atmosphere has at least doubled in bulk since the time of the Voyager encounter." Like the Earth, Triton's atmosphere is composed mostly of molecular nitrogen, but its surface pressure is much less than that of the Earth--about the same as that 45 miles high in the Earth's atmosphere.

In their Nature paper, Elliot and his colleagues list two other possible explanations for Triton's warmer weather. Because the frost pattern on Triton's surface may have changed over the years, it may be absorbing a little more of the sun's warmth. Or changes in reflectivity of Triton's ice may have caused it to absorb more heat. "When you're so cold, global warming is a welcome trend," said Elliot.

About the same size and density as Pluto, Triton--one of Neptune's eight moons--is 30 times as far from the sun as the Earth. It is very cold and windy, with winds close to the speed of sound, and has a mixed terrain of icy regions and bare spots. Triton is a bit smaller than our moon, but its gravity is able to keep an atmosphere from completely escaping because it is so cold. Its composition is believed to be similar to a comet's, although it is much larger than a comet. Triton was captured into a reverse orbit by Neptune's strong gravitational pull.

Other astronomers who participated in this investigation are MIT research assistant Heidi B. Hammel and technical assistants Michael J. Person and Stephen W. McDonald of MIT; Otto G. Franz, Lawrence H. Wasserman, John A. Stansberry, John R. Spencer, Edward W. Dunham, Catherine B. Olkin and Mark W. Buie of Lowell Observatory; Jay M. Pasachoff, Bryce A. Babcock and Timothy H. McConnochie of Williams College.

This work is supported in part by NASA, the National Science Foundation and the National Geographic Society.

5 posted on 05/25/2002 5:05:59 PM PDT by boris
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To: grundle
Right now, Mars is experiencing global warming. The doomsayers haven't really offered much comment on this, either.

Look what the emissions from even a few explorer crafts' retro rockets did! And you don't think we're affecting the climate here!? </sarcasm>

6 posted on 05/25/2002 7:23:40 PM PDT by supercat
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To: grundle
Government mandated reclying of paper doesn't save trees. Paper comes from tree farms, where the trees are grown specifically for the purpose of making paper. So when people recycle paper, the tree farmers plant fewer trees.

The real "benefit" of recycling paper is that less paper goes to landfills. In some areas, where landfill space is at a premium, this may be a good thing. On the other hand, growing trees, turning them into paper, and landfilling them effectively sequesters the carbon the trees absorbed from the atmosphere. Recycling paper has no such effect.

7 posted on 05/25/2002 7:27:20 PM PDT by supercat
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