Ice oceans found on Mars

drudge ^

[tet68]

Ice oceans found on Mars

[tet68]

More at link. Could mean a NASA with direction. Mars or bust.

[KevinDavis]

I'm willing to go! Where do I sign up!

[capt. norm]

Ice on Mars?

To me, that means they must have once had a crude form of "room service".

[Eric in the Ozarks]

All the better to keep the stock of Leinenkugle's chilled.

[BlackJack]

Cocktails!

[mvpel]

Ice = hydrogen and oxygen
Hydrogen and oxygen = rocket fuel and air

[tet68]

Now, who will get there first? Us or the Chinese?

[hedgetrimmer]

Now this is NEWS!

[KevinDavis]

Better be US.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Rock Hudson made it, didn't he ?

[Walkingfeather]

Problem.... Cosmic radiation. You might leave for the mars but you would never make it. In order to protect you from the bambardment of CR your ship would have to be several feet thick of lead. Lead is still a bit heavy as far as I know. Hard to get it into space with that kinda weight.

[SarahW]

Coolest news of the day.

[cynicom]

Read "The Case for Mars", by Robert Zubrin....

[Tacis]

They are probably visible now. Used to be, they couldn't be distinguished from the surrounding areas. Then, NASA began its program of crashing hardware on Mars. These piles of smashed material began rusting, exactly as the government folks now tell us was the plan, and, once the rusting began, the nature of the underlying surface became clear.

This is an amazing victory for NASA. The Smashing Vehicles Mars Strategy (SVMS) has been proven to be the right approach. The NASA director (he's the one with all the drool) is so happy that he has even been giving credit to other government agencies. He mentioned that NASA invented SVMS by simply modifying an approach they adapted from Amtrac's success.

[SBeck]

Start by getting at least a Masters Degree in one of the following: engineering physics, astro-physics, geology, astro-biology, or any number of engineering degrees. It might help if you had some aviation and aerospace sciences disciplines, but that's not necessary. In about a decade we should be ready to begin construction of the Mars launch vehicle, ship, lander and habitat which should be ready for deployment about a decade after that. Adding it up, you can expect to be on Mars in about 25-30 years. Good luck.

(Of course, you could cough up about 100 million dollars and become a space tourist, but that's a different discussion).

[galt-jw]

which means perhaps mars may have once supported life, and by golly, maybe all those really straight lines, which dont occur naturally, are what they look like after all: canals.

[SBeck]

Personally, I'd be more concerned about the Chinese getting at the Moon's resources. The promise of Helium 3 as an almost inexhaustable form of cheap energy may be driving the Chinese space program. Read Arthur C. Clarke's 2061: Odyssey Three for his correct perspective of the coming Chinese advances in space exploration.

[blam]

A new space race(?), with the Chinese now.

[Clara Lou]

It's a 3-year trip to Mars. Who can travel for three years in a sardine can? How many can travel comfortably in a sardine can? What if one gets cold feet and becomes psychotic? There's no way to abort the mission. Once an astronaut is on the way, it's Mars or bust. There are serious problems with travel to Mars.

[SBeck]

Perhaps, but we won't pony up real dollars for the space program until the Chinese put one of their own on the Moon. That will be the wake up call like Sputnik in 1957.

[blam]

(from Ananova)

'Nasa set to announce manned mission to Mars'

The Times says it follows new evidence that huge ice fields below the surface of the planet could support human life.

Jim Garvin, head of the Mars exploration programme for Nasa, is expected to announce a manned mission to the planet within 20 years at a conference in Washington this week.

Such a space flight has been dogged by the difficulties of carrying sufficient water to support the crew.

However The Times reports Mr Garvin will disclose that the Martian explorer satellite Odyssey has detected millions of tons of ice underground. Story filed: 09:45 Sunday 26th May 2002

[tet68]

What if one gets cold feet and becomes psychotic?

Congress today declared, "No firearms in the cockpit of Mars Lander!".

Congresswoman Feinstein introduced HB 1776. "The Mars Assault weapons and ice control act."

[blam]

"That will be the wake up call like Sputnik in 1957."

I remember that clearly. America's jaw fell open in suprise.

[muir_redwoods]

Why would you need several feet of lead for radiation protection? Surely an inch or so would be more than adequate and more sophisticated shields would require even less.

How does the space between Mars and Earth differ dramatically from the space between Earth and the moon? How about the people who spends months in the orbiting space stations?

Do you seriously feel that such a trifling problem will keep us away from Mars? Really?

[medved]

which means perhaps mars may have once supported life, and by golly, maybe all those really straight lines, which dont occur naturally, are what they look like after all: canals.

It's a lot more than a few straight lines...

Images returned from the global surveilance device in orbit around Mars the last several years have included an image of the main pyramid in the ring of pyramids to the left of the face which should have immediately ended all controversy over the question of artificiality:

To me at least, the pyramid is four sided and the four triangular sides are clear enough, and I've marked them with green lines. The other part of the image amounts to some sort of an enclosed corridor or causeway leading out from one corner of the pyramid, and then two nearly rectangular features at the end of that causeway, which may be doors or some sort of adjunct buildings. There also seems to be a line going from the Eastern corner of the pyramid to the two rectangular objects, which I've marked with a blue line, but I suspect that's just an edge of sand being blown up into a sort of an apron abutting the pyramid, and that the hollow between the pyramid and the corridor would naturally trap sand.

Nonetheless, there was little or no mention whatsoever in the press of this new pyramid image, and this was largely because press coverage centered around the new image of the face which NASA released:

This image was said to prove the entire controversy regarding Cydonia to be a bunch of buncombe, and to prove that the structures at Cydonia all to be natural geological formations.

More recently, Dr. Tom Van Flandern, a former director of celestial mechanics at the Naval Abservatory, and others have noted that the image which NASA and JPL released, aside from being a worst possible case in terms of viewing angle and lighting, had actually been "cleaned up" or something like that via the use of a high-pass filter which is a standard image processing device for removing detail. Van Flandern notes that the basic help function for Adobe's Photo Shop product notes:

High Pass Filter: Retains edge details where sharp color transitions occur and suppresses the rest of the image. The filter removes low-frequency detail in an image. Useful for extracting line-art and large black-and-white areas from scanned images.

Van Flandern notes that, as to JPL's motives in using such a filter device on this particular image and then handing it to the public, "we are left with an unhappy choice between dishonesty and incompetence."

When we consider that the raw image looks like:

and that the same image with minimal computer enhancement, which does not add any information looks like:

All of that is bad enough, i.e. it might convince people that NASA and JPL told a big, stupid lie to the American people and to the world. But it's getting worse; consider the new and more direct overhead image of the face which NASA released during May of 2001.

Click Image Above for Full Size NASA Images

Several things are clear. First and most obvious is that anybody still trying to claim that this thing is a mesa or any other kind of natural formation is dillusional. I notice several things, which I have indicated in the marked-up image below

First is that there is only one possible way to build such a thing, i.e. to pile up stones into the rough shape you need, large stones on the bottom and then progressively smaller ones, and then put some sort of a hard facing over the entire thing. You can see how this has been done in the image. On the left side from which wind and sand come, the facing is almost entirely eroded and, even where the underlying stone shows, everything has been worn smooth. On the right side, we can see that part of the facing remains, much of it having fallen off to the side in heaps. We can see the cutout in the facing for the left eye which I have noted, and we can see where the facing fell and broke away from the nose, which is what you would expect. We can also see the rough stones of the nose area, which have not all been worn smooth.

Second is that the megalith is heavily damaged, and has suffered more than one kind of damage. My guess is that the entire rock plate on which the megalith sits was picked up and slammed down, and that the megalith was deformed in the process. You can see the places where the hard casement has been pulled apart on the right side. The megalith has been compressed along the axis from lower left to upper right which I have marked with the blue line, and stretched along the other axis from lower right to upper left. The angle A between the line of the headdress on the left side and the line along the top is thus less than the original 90 degrees. The line through the center of the face has been deformed from the original straight line to the curved line which I have drawn. The basic shape of the mouth is still there, albeit moved to the left as I have noted. You can see where the outer casing has broken away from part of the outline of the mouth on the right.

You can see the ridge along the eyebrows as I have noted, you can see the indentation for the right eye and the outline of the left eye cut into the facing and still in reasonably good shape. You can see the rise for the nose as well as the area where the casing broke away from the nose on the right, and part of the remains of nostrils, and you can see the basic lines of the mouth.

Unless of course you're STUPID like the feebs at NASA who're still working triple shifts trying to convince the world this thing is a mesa. In that kind of case, no amount of technology will help. There has never been a cure for stupidity, and there will never be one.

A short while ago, Dr. Van Flandern and other associates gave a presentation at the National Press Club which may be viewed at Metaresearch.

Information has been coming in for two or three years now from the device presently over Mars. Massive evidence of Mars having been inhabited fairly recently has been accumulating. As Metaresearch and other www sites dealing with the subject note, this includes evidence of settlements:

Click on image for full NASA image. Note the terracing, and the rows of structures which are heavily weathered to the upper right of the image but which retain their rectangular corners on the lower left (leeward) side.

Other human faces have been found carved in the surface, e.g.:

Numerous other things intended to be viewed from off-planet have been documented at Metaresearch, Cydonia Files, and other sites.

What then drives the basic instinct of NASA and JPL to bury this story? One possible motive which has been suggested involves the division of funding between manned and unmanned space missions at NASA and JPL. But, more realistically, the major problem which the Cydonia findings presents to the people in these agencies is one of basic scientific paradigms. Nobody could build all of this stuff on this kind of a megalithic scale with space-suits on; the planet has to be habitable for Cydonia to get built. This is a huge problem, in that it would require a totally different basic theory of the history of our solar system from the one which the scientists have. There is simply no way, given the standard paradigm, in which Mars could have ever been habitable. It would always have been too cold, and it would never have had the gravity necessary to hold a livable atmosphere, assuming that gravity is the only thing which ever holds atmosphere to planets.

The standard scientific axiomatic scheme including the basic doctrine of uniformitarianism, evolution etc. etc. does not allow for solar-system-wide catastrophes within the age of man, nonetheless, that is precisely what we have here. Those newer face images are definitely modern people and not early hominids. Nothing involving modern people here, on Mars, or anywhere else figures to be millions of years gone by, and nothing capable of destroying the planet next to us and making a dead world of it would have gone unnoticed by our ancestors.

What we have here is another case of junk science, i.e. the theory of evolution and the doctrine of uniformity, destroying research and logical thinking amongst scientists. The science pages of our journals are filled by descriptions of NASA projects to search for microbes on Mars while studiously ignoring major evidence that they have found a city there, as if germs were important, and cities were not.

[jumpstartme]

Yeah, but do they have ice cream?

[Bommer]

Man dude! Smoking crack on a Sunday before church? For shame!

[Savage Beast]

Paradigm paralysis is one of the main impedimedents to imagination, freedom of thought, creativity, and progress.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Problem.... Cosmic radiation. You might leave for the mars but you would never make it. In order to protect you from the bambardment of CR your ship would have to be several feet thick of lead. Lead is still a bit heavy as far as I know. Hard to get it into space with that kinda weight."

Dear Feather--I have a revelation for you---you are bombarded daily with cosmic radiation--the atmosphere is no barrier to it. The only way to escape it is by being several hundred feet underground. The problem with space travel isn't COSMIC radiation (which is omnipresent, but at a relatively low dose level), but the probability that SOLAR radiation (particles emitted from the sun during solar flares) will suddenly increase. As abwehr says--the answer to that is the small, well-shielded "solar storm cellar".

[Ole Okie]

A new space race(?), with the Chinese now.

Well, there's gotta be some way to unlock the gummit's coffers.

Brand new space race with the Chinese is the next gambit.

[Tricorn]

Wow! Ice on Mars.

Ice on Mars = ancient pre-biotic soup

pre-biotic soup = life on Mars

life on Mars = no God

Yessir, I haven't been this excited since the last time scientists discovered life on Mars -- in Antarctica!!

[NormsRevenge]

TiPs For Ice Fishing On Mars

"UN-Permanent", Permanent Fish Houses
By Noel Vick

Minnesota waters the likes of Mille Lacs, Leech, and too many others to name, become covered with woodshed-looking structures the moment would-be-anglers deem ice conditions to be "safe"; understanding of course that "safe" is a relative term. Coined as "permanent fish houses", these edifices vary in size and composition from itty-bitty rickety shacks to luxurious adobes that sleep a dozen or more winter anglers. But a common thread amongst permanent fish houses of all classes is that they are just that, permanent.

Oh sure, any fish house that is dragged out early in the season, and consequently removed at season’s end can most definitely be moved from spot to spot in between. But realistically, how many permanent houses get regularly relocated in association with fish movements? Far too many permanent shelters hit the ice, are strategically placed, then sit dormant for weeks, only to collect snow banks and ice walls.

Moving a large permanent shelter is a major undertaking. Internal heat emitted from a fish house causes contacting ice and snow to melt, and once occupants have left and things cool down, the resulting water re-freezes and puts a "death grip" on the shelter’s foundation. Plenty of chiseling, lifting, pushing, and pulling are required to first free, then relocate the beast. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was an ice fishing shelter that offered the comfort and amenities associated with a permanent house, but had mobility characteristics of a portable? There is…

A handful of Minnesota based manufacturers now build what are considered "fish houses on wheels". These ingenious shelters have taken the ice fishing industry by storm! Whoever thought that someday you could own a well-constructed 8’ X 12’ fish house, and with it, jig Mille Lacs perch on Friday, rig tip-ups on Lake Winnibigoshish on Saturday, and finish up the weekend on Lake of the Woods hooking walleyes? It happens all the time.

Regardless of specific design, the essential theory behind wheeled fish houses is to have a permanent shelter that can be raised and lowered on its attached trailer. The trailers raise and lower via cables and a winch, or in some situations, hydraulics. As the fish house is lowered its trailer wheels retract and settle alongside. When its time to relocate or call it day, simply crank up a side, lock it in place, crank up the other side, lock it in place, hitch-up, and drive away... Hand winch models can be easily cranked-up by a single angler. Tongue weights vary according manufacturer design and overall fish house size. Trailer tongues on some units can be physically lifted and placed on a vehicle hitch, others require use of an adjustable trailer jack. Always be careful to avoid back injury when lifting a trailer tongue; also, it’s easy to forget how much tongue weight increases once heavy gear is put inside the house.

If your vehicle can tow a boat, it can pull one of these babies. Fish houses on wheels also come complete with street legal trailer lights and wiring harness. Once on the ice, a lot of anglers shuttle their fish house on wheels around with an ATV.

There are two basic exterior designs available. Manufacturers such as King Crow Co., Frank’s RV Service, Inc., and Performance Engineering specialize in corrosive free aluminum paneling. Al Poach and The Fish House Store, two other notable fish house builders, produce wood sided versions. Paned- insulated, and even sliding windows are other common features offered by each and every one of these businesses.

Typical exterior dimensions range from 8’ X 6.5’ or 8’ X 8’ to 16’ X 6.5’ or 16’ X 8’. These are average sizes, and every manufacturer has their own specifications. Plus, when asked, these folks will build them to whatever size your fishing party requires.

The sky’s the limit when considering interior design. True, manufacturers have a handful of basic plans they work from, but rarely will two identical houses pass each other on the highway. Personalization is a trademark of the industry. Rarely is a request turned down if its legal and you have the means to pay for it.

Inside a furnished model you’ll find insulation, interior paneling, a thermostatic heating system, cooking stove, cupboards galore, 12-volt lighting system, indoor/outdoor carpeting, fish holes with covers, and bunks. The next level takes you into amenities such as bench seating, running water with a sink and shower, ceiling fans, refrigerator, more storage, more windows (and bigger ones), window treatments, generator, customized paneling, and just about anything else that comes to mind. Each manufacturer has their own limit, or lack of a limit, as to what they’ll throw on, so it’s up to you to call around.

"Gutted" fish houses are also available. They sell numerous unfinished shelters, which consist of just the bare bones trailer and shell, leaving interior design up to the purchaser. Do-it-yourselfers and the budget conscious should consider this option.

Most heating systems are propane fueled and thermostatically controlled. Exterior LP tanks and regulators sit on the trailer tongue; interior heating configurations vary. Again, if you have a specific idea in mind, share it with the builder upon placing an order.

All this talk about comfort and luxury without a single mention of why you’re on the ice in the first place, which is to catch fish! Holes, or floor cutouts, are strategically placed near benches, bunks, and other "fishable" locations. Fully automated houses even offer rattle-reels, automatic jigging devices, and lights directly above the holes. What else could a guy want? How about an exterior antenna and TV hook-up? You got it! I’ll raise you a livewell. It’s yours! Getting the idea? A fella can have it all…

Listing of Ice fishing fish house companies :

King Crow - Fish House Manufacturer - Kingston, MN 

Canvas Craft - Canvas Products for the Sportsman - Minnesota

Performance Engineering - Custom Fish Houses

Trophy Fishouses™ - Ultimate Fish House Experience

Klave Industrial - Manufacturer of deluxe aluminum fish houses

The Fish house outlet - Distrubutor of ice fishing fish houses

Return to Ice Fishing

Copyright© 1996 Fish & Game Finder Magazine

Things I Miss About Ol' MinnieSoda ...Ice Fishing, Back Roads.. Things I Don't Miss About MinnieSoder .. MosQuitoes,May Bugs, June Bugs, July Bugs, ...Hmmm? Mars sounds pretty good !!

[Northpaw]

[RayChuang88]

I for one am going to listen with GREAT interest what one Richard C. Hoagland says about the whole discovery.

It's more than likely that Hoagland will be Art Bell's first-hour guest on his radio show very soon (probably Tuesday night when Bell returns from his vacation) and given Hoagland's considerable interest in Mars, he will definitely have a lot to say about this. :-)

[A. Pole]

Ice on Mars = ancient pre-biotic soup

I think that it is very likely than on Mars there is some form of life and not alien one. The Earth atmosphere carries a lot of spores and other life particles and the Solar wind or some meteorites had to seed Earthly life on Mars many times.

[Willie Green]

More at link. Could mean a NASA with direction. Mars or bust.

More like misdirection, Mars AND bust.

Time to defund and privatize NASA.

If the private sector can find anything worth doing out there, let 'em have it.

[Fiddlstix]

Bump
To read later

[john in missouri]

Don't bother trying to confuse medved with facts or concrete examples of why his theories are cracked. You're simply wasting your time.

[sigSEGV]

Sometimes I think there are aliens living on my ceiling because I see faces in the bumps.

[john in missouri]

This is major news!

[swarthyguy]

Don't forget ArthurC. Clarke's quote regarding the 'tunnel' structures/anomalies up there. Just as long as we get there before the Chinese.

[Straight Vermonter]

The presence of such a vast amount of ice - if it were to melt it could cover the planet in an ocean at least 500 metres deep (1640 feet) - will change profoundly the direction of future exploration.

Oh the humanity! We're all going to die from Martian warming! Send Al Gore to save us!

[Ahban]

There is a realistic way to make the trip in 30 days. M2P2