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1 posted on 05/28/2002 7:39:35 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: TroutStalker
I really like much of what the Libertarians have to say. Especially the CATO guys. When are they going to get some candidates that have all their teeth and don't grease their hair?
2 posted on 05/28/2002 7:46:52 AM PDT by AdA$tra
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To: TroutStalker
The list could go on, but the point should be clear.

LOL!

In other words, "The list could go on, but then I'd be discussing our REAL agenda, i.e., the legalization of drugs, sodomy, and gay marriage--and genuine conservatives would tune me out."

The man isn't stupid. Disingenuous maybe, but not stupid.

3 posted on 05/28/2002 7:49:19 AM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: TroutStalker
Great article!!!!

Thanks for posting.

4 posted on 05/28/2002 7:56:38 AM PDT by Kerberos
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To: TroutStalker
...Libertarian principles are here to stay..

Yes, libertarian principles are here to stay. Principles like, support for abortion rights, legalization of drugs and prostitution, open borders and unlimited immigration, and a strong desire to dismantle both America's criminal justice system and military armed forces. The problem is, these principles aren't supported by a majority of conservatives. Conservatives view these major issues that Libertarians support, as fringe political extremism. Even most American's don't want anything to do with such an agenda.

Libertarian politics doesn't have a major following in America and never will. In the last general election for president, the LP candidate, Harry Browne, received less then 400K votes, out of over 100-million total votes cast. That's less the .04%. Even Pat Buchanan received more votes then Browne. That doesn't say much for the future of libertarian politics in America.

7 posted on 05/28/2002 8:15:27 AM PDT by Reagan Man
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To: TroutStalker
No mention is made of Satanic Druids, Illuminatis, armining criminals and crazies, or legalizing all drugs. This story makes Libertarianism sound like a rational political philosophy, once those elements are removed.
8 posted on 05/28/2002 8:20:34 AM PDT by Destructor
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To: TroutStalker; Kevin Curry
Yet the Founders who created this nation were libertarians. They didn't use that word, of course, nor did they call themselves (classical) liberals or democrats. But they stood for basic libertarian principles: the equal right of all to pursue happiness, free from arbitrary interference, and government dedicated to securing that right. Respect for government's limits is hardly hostility to government in all its manifestations.

If that were only true! These listed principles are hardly arguable. Many conservatives embrace these as well.

As far as I'm concerned Libertarians took several steps back when they showed their anti-American colors in support of Arabs and terrorists. They have it in their warped minds that it's okay to bomb anything American because whatever reasons they have for doing so is justified because America deserves it. They don't see or call the so called 'retailiation' a violent act. Peace is so precious to them but as long as an act of violence is directed at Americans/America then their philosophy quickly changes. It's hypocrisy!

Kevin, talk about disingenious you are always bringing up the same old same old nonsense about drugs, etc with libertarians. The arguement is not that limited.

12 posted on 05/28/2002 8:28:07 AM PDT by Boxsford
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To: TroutStalker
Excellent article. When Libertarians stop pushing for legalized drugs and prostitution, they may actually find themselves getting elected! If nothing else they ought to have the political wherewithal to keep these two hot button issues on the Q.T. and always "hush hush". For some reason, they don't. They let drugs and hookers dominate the general public's perception of libertarianism, while their strongest arguments and issues are left out to dry. I don't understand it.
19 posted on 05/28/2002 9:00:30 AM PDT by Exnihilo
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To: TroutStalker
Ironically, the 9/11 attacks constituted a massive failure of government to do the main thing libertarians call upon government to do -- protect us.

Obviously, wasting time and resources on trivia will degrade the ability to perform the primary task.

20 posted on 05/28/2002 9:00:40 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: TroutStalker
Listen to how America's (non) immigration policy is destroying our nation
23 posted on 05/28/2002 9:03:02 AM PDT by Jethro Tull
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To: TroutStalker
Hi TS
thanks for posting this article
I am libertarian
(seems to me the libertarian movement is growing by leaps and bounds)
I think stopping the war on drugs is top priority now
(and if we get rid of income tax, government will no longer spend our tax dollars funding it)
Love, Palo
39 posted on 05/28/2002 9:48:55 AM PDT by palo verde
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To: TroutStalker
Gee, an entire article on Libertarianism, and no mention of drugs? But I thought that was the only thing the "libertine idealogues" were concerned about.
41 posted on 05/28/2002 9:51:59 AM PDT by ActionNewsBill
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To: TroutStalker
I think many Americans find a libertarian philosophy in domestic affairs to be somewhat attractive, but I think the libertarian "non-intervention" foriegn policy is not a winner.

After 9-11, many libertarian commentators were sounding rather "fringe", and utopian, with their alternate histories. Although the author tries to make a distinction between non-intervention and isolationism, the two are quite intertwined. Unfortunately we live in a world where even if you don't want trouble, trouble will come looking for you.

Yes, libertarianism will live on, but for our own sakes, hopefully it will only have influence in domestic policy, in the never ending battle of government power versus individual rights.

42 posted on 05/28/2002 9:53:36 AM PDT by TheDon
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To: TroutStalker
The Founders believed in individual liberty and limited government. They were very far from being modern-day socialists or social democrats but I'm not convinced they were libertarians in the modern sense of the word.

The Revolution wasn't against government, but rather against what were viewed as illegitimate usurpations by the British government. After the war, the Framers were shocked by the chaos of government under the Articles of Confederation and resolved to create a stronger federal government. You can find quotations by Washington, Adams, Hamilton and Madison expressing fear of anarchy as well as of tyranny or demagogery. Anti-federalists may be more to the liking of today's libertarians. But even among the Anti-federalists, someone like Sam Adams with his affection for a tight little "Christian Sparta" of pious, virtuous and self-governing New Englanders wouldn't fit in well at 21st century libertarian gatherings.

Among people today you will find many who hate Hitler and Stalin and the world portrayed in Orwell's 1984. They defend freedom in areas that matter to them and oppose excessive government or taxation or intrusive bureaucracy. But they would not call themselves libertarians and would oppose planks of the libertarian platform. Many of these people are Republicans, others Independents or supporters of third parties. Some may even be Democrats. Counting them as Libertarians or libertarians would be a mistake. I suspect the same is true of the Founders or Framers.

What the founders were looking for was balance and a middle way between the world's dangers. One could make a case that that is what classical liberalism was or at least intended to be. It would be much harder to make that same point about many of today's libertarians.

Imagine reading Hayek in 1950 or 1970 and being taken by his sensible arguments against new socialist proposals. Or reading Madison, or Montesquiou on limited government or Mill or Acton on liberty in previous centuries. Then imagine that you read today's "Reason" or "lewrockwell.com" or "antistate.com" What possible reason would you have for hanging around that crowd? If the important battles against tyranny are won, why bother with the movement to crush the state? Having defeated dangerous utopians, why throw in with another utopian movement?

Is this a new libertarian age? Clearly communism and classical socialism are down for the count. More and more people care about and want liberty. But I suspect that people will still want some checks on the power of the global market and the homogenization it brings.

The globalist future means ever greater power for those who can master money and the techniques of increasing it, technology and media. Maybe such people do show the great competence essential for making the modern world work. And yet, those who lack such skills also have interests that should be represented.

The weakness of libertarianism isn't that it's so wildly, daringly and dangerously different from other theories of government. It's the similarities that are the problem. In time libertarianism comes to be seen as similar to other political ideologies, a way for one group to use the law to promote its own interests and block threats to those interests. Other groups behave similarly and make their own cases heard. If things are managed well and people keep their heads there's no tragedy in that.

50 posted on 05/28/2002 10:40:20 AM PDT by x
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To: TroutStalker
I love the Cato Institute. I check out their site at least 3 times a week. My favorite study by them is "The Rise of Worker Capitalism." This is top-shelf.

So I can admit that I am convinced and supportive of a lot of libertarian principles. Not all, but quite a lot.

That said, I don't have a problem with libertarianism. But I do have a problem with libertarians (small or capital 'L' doesn't matter). They are the absolute worse ambassadors for their cause. You'd figure that since they don't have the numbers, they would be more accommodating and inviting. You wouldn't expect a new car salesman to be successful by insulting potential customers, would you?

Of course not.

But this lesson is lost on the average libertarian that you come across on these boards.
Pay attention. I'm not attacking libertarian principles at all, yet it will be perceived as an attack by some. Watch...

53 posted on 05/28/2002 11:36:17 AM PDT by rdb3
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To: TroutStalker
the equal right of all to pursue happiness, free from arbitrary interference, and government dedicated to securing that right. Respect for government's limits is hardly hostility to government in all its manifestations.

Unfortunately the government today does not see things this way. They are not concerned about our rights, they are concerned about money and power, pure and simple.

We needed neither activism nor restraint, but courts responsible to the Constitution

When you think about it, the courts are the frontlines in our fight to retain our rights.

Surveys repeatedly show that when lower taxes and fewer government services are pitted against their opposites, smaller government wins.

Actually when you have smaller government, the lower taxes could follow it.

62 posted on 05/28/2002 1:36:49 PM PDT by texlok
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To: TroutStalker
BTTT
74 posted on 05/28/2002 4:52:59 PM PDT by Frances_Marion
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To: TroutStalker
Great Article- Libertarianism is becoming the norm in the conservative legal circles. Roger Pilon, Richard Eptein, Randy Barnett and Posner have replaced Bork as the new voice for the Federalist Society and other groups- with Clarence Thomas as the favorite on the Supreme Court- since Congress and the President refuse to cut a dime- we can only hope the courts will continue the trend set by Lopez of returning to the constitutional government before the New Deal. Looking at Bush's judicial nominations so far, the future looks promising.
75 posted on 05/28/2002 4:58:11 PM PDT by Fast 1975
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To: Kerberos; christine11; billofrights
Hi Kerberos
Thanks for your post
My hunch is if Libertarian Party can get its act really together by next election
we have 50/50 chance of winning
I never voted Libertarian before, I will in future
What has brought me to this place may not be same as others
but my hunch is no two citizens take identical route to arrive at this choice
it offers something new and refreshing, at same time is sensible and is filled with vision of freedom
Love, Palo
85 posted on 05/28/2002 8:23:59 PM PDT by palo verde
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To: TroutStalker
"Libertarianism Lives"

Just like Elvis.

107 posted on 05/30/2002 7:28:28 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: TroutStalker
Libertarians are political juveniles and theoretical hacks whose idealized universe is neither realistic or viable. Since Libertarians seldom if ever exercise political power and thus have to make the hard choices and real world compromises, they can freely bitch and moan about how they would never do such things in an environment of make-believe armchair philosophizing.
117 posted on 05/31/2002 11:58:02 PM PDT by rebelsoldier
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