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The Real History of the Crusades
crisismagazine ^ | April 1, 2002 | Thomas F. Madden

Posted on 05/29/2002 6:43:31 PM PDT by RebelDawg

The Real History of the Crusades
By Thomas F. Madden

With the possible exception of Umberto Eco, medieval scholars are not used to getting much media attention. We tend to be a quiet lot (except during the annual bacchanalia we call the International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo, Michigan, of all places), poring over musty chronicles and writing dull yet meticulous studies that few will read. Imagine, then, my surprise when within days of the September 11 attacks, the Middle Ages suddenly became relevant.

As a Crusade historian, I found the tranquil solitude of the ivory tower shattered by journalists, editors, and talk-show hosts on tight deadlines eager to get the real scoop. What were the Crusades?, they asked. When were they? Just how insensitive was President George W. Bush for using the word "crusade" in his remarks? With a few of my callers I had the distinct impression that they already knew the answers to their questions, or at least thought they did. What they really wanted was an expert to say it all back to them. For example, I was frequently asked to comment on the fact that the Islamic world has a just grievance against the West. Doesn’t the present violence, they persisted, have its roots in the Crusades’ brutal and unprovoked attacks against a sophisticated and tolerant Muslim world? In other words, aren’t the Crusades really to blame?

Osama bin Laden certainly thinks so. In his various video performances, he never fails to describe the American war against terrorism as a new Crusade against Islam. Ex-president Bill Clinton has also fingered the Crusades as the root cause of the present conflict. In a speech at Georgetown University, he recounted (and embellished) a massacre of Jews after the Crusader conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 and informed his audience that the episode was still bitterly remembered in the Middle East. (Why Islamist terrorists should be upset about the killing of Jews was not explained.) Clinton took a beating on the nation’s editorial pages for wanting so much to blame the United States that he was willing to reach back to the Middle Ages. Yet no one disputed the ex-president’s fundamental premise.

Well, almost no one. Many historians had been trying to set the record straight on the Crusades long before Clinton discovered them. They are not revisionists, like the American historians who manufactured the Enola Gay exhibit, but mainstream scholars offering the fruit of several decades of very careful, very serious scholarship. For them, this is a "teaching moment," an opportunity to explain the Crusades while people are actually listening. It won’t last long, so here goes.

Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman’s famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.

So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

* * *

Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:

How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?

"Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one’s neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.’"

The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?

The reconquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one’s love of God. Medieval men knew, of course, that God had the power to restore Jerusalem Himself—indeed, He had the power to restore the whole world to His rule. Yet as St. Bernard of Clairvaux preached, His refusal to do so was a blessing to His people:

Again I say, consider the Almighty’s goodness and pay heed to His plans of mercy. He puts Himself under obligation to you, or rather feigns to do so, that He can help you to satisfy your obligations toward Himself.... I call blessed the generation that can seize an opportunity of such rich indulgence as this.

It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews’ money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.

Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:

Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."

Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.

It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.

By any reckoning, the First Crusade was a long shot. There was no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines, no detailed strategy. It was simply thousands of warriors marching deep into enemy territory, committed to a common cause. Many of them died, either in battle or through disease or starvation. It was a rough campaign, one that seemed always on the brink of disaster. Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had restored Nicaea and Antioch to Christian rule. In July 1099, they conquered Jerusalem and began to build a Christian state in Palestine. The joy in Europe was unbridled. It seemed that the tide of history, which had lifted the Muslims to such heights, was now turning.

* * *

But it was not. When we think about the Middle Ages, it is easy to view Europe in light of what it became rather than what it was. The colossus of the medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The Crusades are interesting largely because they were an attempt to counter that trend. But in five centuries of crusading, it was only the First Crusade that significantly rolled back the military progress of Islam. It was downhill from there.

When the Crusader County of Edessa fell to the Turks and Kurds in 1144, there was an enormous groundswell of support for a new Crusade in Europe. It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself. It failed miserably. Most of the Crusaders were killed along the way. Those who made it to Jerusalem only made things worse by attacking Muslim Damascus, which formerly had been a strong ally of the Christians. In the wake of such a disaster, Christians across Europe were forced to accept not only the continued growth of Muslim power but the certainty that God was punishing the West for its sins. Lay piety movements sprouted up throughout Europe, all rooted in the desire to purify Christian society so that it might be worthy of victory in the East.

Crusading in the late twelfth century, therefore, became a total war effort. Every person, no matter how weak or poor, was called to help. Warriors were asked to sacrifice their wealth and, if need be, their lives for the defense of the Christian East. On the home front, all Christians were called to support the Crusades through prayer, fasting, and alms. Yet still the Muslims grew in strength. Saladin, the great unifier, had forged the Muslim Near East into a single entity, all the while preaching jihad against the Christians. In 1187 at the Battle of Hattin, his forces wiped out the combined armies of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured the precious relic of the True Cross. Defenseless, the Christian cities began surrendering one by one, culminating in the surrender of Jerusalem on October 2. Only a tiny handful of ports held out.

The response was the Third Crusade. It was led by Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the German Empire, King Philip II Augustus of France, and King Richard I Lionheart of England. By any measure it was a grand affair, although not quite as grand as the Christians had hoped. The aged Frederick drowned while crossing a river on horseback, so his army returned home before reaching the Holy Land. Philip and Richard came by boat, but their incessant bickering only added to an already divisive situation on the ground in Palestine. After recapturing Acre, the king of France went home, where he busied himself carving up Richard’s French holdings. The Crusade, therefore, fell into Richard’s lap. A skilled warrior, gifted leader, and superb tactician, Richard led the Christian forces to victory after victory, eventually reconquering the entire coast. But Jerusalem was not on the coast, and after two abortive attempts to secure supply lines to the Holy City, Richard at last gave up. Promising to return one day, he struck a truce with Saladin that ensured peace in the region and free access to Jerusalem for unarmed pilgrims. But it was a bitter pill to swallow. The desire to restore Jerusalem to Christian rule and regain the True Cross remained intense throughout Europe.

The Crusades of the 13th century were larger, better funded, and better organized. But they too failed. The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.

The remainder of the 13th century’s Crusades did little better. The Fifth Crusade (1217-1221) managed briefly to capture Damietta in Egypt, but the Muslims eventually defeated the army and reoccupied the city. St. Louis IX of France led two Crusades in his life. The first also captured Damietta, but Louis was quickly outwitted by the Egyptians and forced to abandon the city. Although Louis was in the Holy Land for several years, spending freely on defensive works, he never achieved his fondest wish: to free Jerusalem. He was a much older man in 1270 when he led another Crusade to Tunis, where he died of a disease that ravaged the camp. After St. Louis’s death, the ruthless Muslim leaders, Baybars and Kalavun, waged a brutal jihad against the Christians in Palestine. By 1291, the Muslim forces had succeeded in killing or ejecting the last of the Crusaders, thus erasing the Crusader kingdom from the map. Despite numerous attempts and many more plans, Christian forces were never again able to gain a foothold in the region until the 19th century.

* * *

One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world. One of the great best-sellers of the time, Sebastian Brant’s The Ship of Fools, gave voice to this sentiment in a chapter titled "Of the Decline of the Faith":

Our faith was strong in th’ Orient,

It ruled in all of Asia,

In Moorish lands and Africa.

But now for us these lands are gone

’Twould even grieve the hardest stone....

Four sisters of our Church you find,

They’re of the patriarchic kind:

Constantinople, Alexandria,

Jerusalem, Antiochia.

But they’ve been forfeited and sacked

And soon the head will be attacked.

Of course, that is not what happened. But it very nearly did. In 1480, Sultan Mehmed II captured Otranto as a beachhead for his invasion of Italy. Rome was evacuated. Yet the sultan died shortly thereafter, and his plan died with him. In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city. Germany, then, would have been at their mercy.

Yet, even while these close shaves were taking place, something else was brewing in Europe—something unprecedented in human history. The Renaissance, born from a strange mixture of Roman values, medieval piety, and a unique respect for commerce and entrepreneurialism, had led to other movements like humanism, the Scientific Revolution, and the Age of Exploration. Even while fighting for its life, Europe was preparing to expand on a global scale. The Protestant Reformation, which rejected the papacy and the doctrine of indulgence, made Crusades unthinkable for many Europeans, thus leaving the fighting to the Catholics. In 1571, a Holy League, which was itself a Crusade, defeated the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto. Yet military victories like that remained rare. The Muslim threat was neutralized economically. As Europe grew in wealth and power, the once awesome and sophisticated Turks began to seem backward and pathetic—no longer worth a Crusade. The "Sick Man of Europe" limped along until the 20th century, when he finally expired, leaving behind the present mess of the modern Middle East.

From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.

Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including A Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christendom; christianlist; clashofcivilizatio; crusade; crusades; historylist; islam; jihad; thecrusades; thomasfmadden; thomasmadden
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Some real history for my left leaning liberal "friends"

--Dawg
1 posted on 05/29/2002 6:43:32 PM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: RebelDawg
Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands

Not the history of the popular press.

2 posted on 05/29/2002 6:54:17 PM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: RebelDawg
Great Post....thanks.
3 posted on 05/29/2002 6:54:41 PM PDT by Icthus
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To: Icthus
Anytime friend ;-)

It amazes me how the liberal press/scholars have distorted history. I have long time close friends who have been led to believe the liberal spin on the crusades. It drives me crazy sometimes! Grrrrrrr!
4 posted on 05/29/2002 6:57:23 PM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: RebelDawg
Zoroastrianism is extinct? Man how the time flies!

I was just watching him on the Disney channel.

5 posted on 05/29/2002 6:59:08 PM PDT by tet68
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To: Askel5
Can you read this and tell me what to think?
6 posted on 05/29/2002 7:04:03 PM PDT by nunya bidness
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To: RebelDawg
BUMP
7 posted on 05/29/2002 7:10:54 PM PDT by remaininlight
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To: RebelDawg
BRAVO BUMP
8 posted on 05/29/2002 7:20:50 PM PDT by JulieRNR21
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To: RebelDawg
Good find Dawg, Thanks!
9 posted on 05/29/2002 7:24:08 PM PDT by redhawk
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To: RebelDawg
What the Orthodox Christians suffered at the hands of the turks/muslims in the Balkans and points East was just awful.
10 posted on 05/29/2002 7:24:41 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: RebelDawg
Reminds one of the demonizing of the Franco in the Spanish Civil War by the same liberal press/media. No mention is ever made of the Communist support for the Insurgents provided by Stalin and their rape of nuns in convents.
11 posted on 05/29/2002 7:33:28 PM PDT by Cato the Censor
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To: RebelDawg
Reminds one of the demonizing of Franco in the Spanish Civil War by the same liberal press/media. No mention is ever made of the Communist support for the Insurgents provided by Stalin and their rape of nuns in convents.
12 posted on 05/29/2002 7:34:38 PM PDT by Cato the Censor
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To: RebelDawg
Yay! Go TEAM! Fight Fight Fight! (The truth crusaders need cheerleaders)
13 posted on 05/29/2002 7:35:58 PM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: PeterPrinciple
So it would seem that history does in fact repeat itself. HHHMMMMMMMMMMMmmm..
14 posted on 05/29/2002 7:59:35 PM PDT by sharkdiver
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To: RebelDawg
The original rationale for the Crusades was more than justified--a defensive war against the international muslim jihad, with its goal of world conquest. But when the Crusaders attacked the Jews and the Orthodox Christians--especially the horrible sack of Constantinople and the establishment of the phony "Latin Empire"--that was something else, which defeated the whole purpose (as the above article indeed says).

All of this history still affects us today. The "Western" attack on the Serbs (which still goes on today), and the bigoted Serbophobia and even Pravoslavophobia (hatred of Orthodox Christians) spouted by so many of the "Western" pundit class is the biggest example in the world today. (The Nazi holocaust, primarily directed against the Jews, but also against Serbs and Russians, was another example.)

All of this is not only criminally unjust, but detracts from our need to fight the international muslim jihad, which is again resurgent.

15 posted on 05/29/2002 8:25:15 PM PDT by Honorary Serb
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To: *History_list;*Christian_list;*Catholic_list;*Clash of Civilizatio

16 posted on 05/29/2002 8:39:43 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: JulieRNR21
I'm glad I was educated in the sixties in the South.
This is exactly how I was taught the Crusades.
Heck....I don't even know the liberal spin...(and don't want to know)
I thought everyone knew this to be the true story.
17 posted on 05/29/2002 8:56:54 PM PDT by eddie willers
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To: RebelDawg, Honorary Serb
The good professor is somewhat revisionist in his thinking. Funny how he left out the fact that the Mongols were kicking everybody's butt, Christian and Muslim alike, GENGHIS KHAN, THE MONGOLS AND ASIA, TO 1300. A careful reading will illustrate the role of the Mongols in the Professor's two dimensional view of the 12th Century.

The one exception to Mongol victories was their defeat by Egyptian forces, but heck, the Crusaders also took a licking along the Nile!

18 posted on 05/29/2002 9:53:01 PM PDT by robbinsj
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To: Honorary Serb
Interesting take. Thanks for the history from the Slavic POV.
19 posted on 05/29/2002 9:57:29 PM PDT by CARepubGal
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To: Cato the Censor
Won't comment on rape of nuns in convents - I've spent too much time analysing propaganda.
But the Stalinist support of the red wings (nationalists were Franco's faction) should not be denied.
20 posted on 05/29/2002 10:33:39 PM PDT by norton
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To: norton
Forgot to mention:
Good article
a little biased on the side of 'the church' but a good review nonetheless.

Recommend any reading into the Knights Templar.
Not always nice but cannot object to their motivations.
Subject yet today of rumors and discredit.

21 posted on 05/29/2002 10:37:12 PM PDT by norton
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To: Honorary Serb
"Pravoslavophobia (hatred of Orthodox Christians)"

I'll admit to being ignorant in at least some regards:
Where does this one come from???

22 posted on 05/29/2002 10:42:08 PM PDT by norton
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To: edmund929;Utah Girl;A. Morgan;thucydides;Cicero;Ciexyz;My Identity;BunnySlippers;mlmr;Matt Young...
More on the Crusades...
23 posted on 05/30/2002 12:30:40 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: RebelDawg
Some FR Threads on the Crusades:

The Real History of the Crusades
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/661560/posts
What really happened

The Battle over the Crusades
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/517546/posts
Myths, legends and anti-Catholic "histories"

The Crusades in the Checkout Aisle
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/665181/posts
More Nonsense from U.S. News & World Report

War has its Roots in the Crusades
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/549342/posts
U.S. drawn into conflict that began 1,000 years ago

Crusades: A defensive operation
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b3506b6e8a.htm
Historical and theological problems for apologists
24 posted on 05/30/2002 2:15:25 AM PDT by My Identity
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To: robbinsj
"The one exception to Mongol victories was their defeat by Egyptian forces, but heck, the Crusaders also took a licking along the Nile!"

Actually, I thought it was the Turks that stopped the Mongols dead in their tracks. They were every bit the Mongols' equals in warfare.........and damned well knew it. Their first engagement (a nasty affair) ended in a draw, but it managed to halt the Mongols' advance. They never quite regained their momentum.

25 posted on 05/30/2002 3:44:07 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: RebelDawg
The reconquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one’s love of God.

The reconquest of Jerusalem was a massacre/sack of the Muslim and Jewish population that was recognized as savage even by medieval standards. Contrast it to Saladin's chivalrous, humane respect for Christians in Jerusalem when the city changed hands.

It did not take long for the crusading impulse to swing from a front where the demographic situation was hopeless (Palestine) to one where Western power could simply muscle over weak, fractured local powers (the Baltic, the Balkans, Spain). The only lingering legacy of the capital C Crusades is the occasional blonde Palestinian (Suha Arafat).

26 posted on 05/30/2002 7:28:14 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: RightOnline
Actually, I thought it was the Turks that stopped the Mongols dead in their tracks. They were every bit the Mongols' equals in warfare.........and damned well knew it.

The Mongol superiority was in C3I. They could maneuver and control over wide distances with a skill that no other medieval army could match. The first defeat the Mongols suffered was not at the hands of the Turks. It was the Egyptian Mamelukes at Ain Jalut. Egypt specifically set about to create a body of elite heavy cavalry who could both outshoot Mongol horse archers and stand up to a Crusader charge.

27 posted on 05/30/2002 7:32:21 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: RebelDawg
"While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way."
What other kind of behavior would you expect from a people whose environment is a desert? Would you expect them to have the same religious beliefs as say, a Germanic tribe living in a forest at a higher latitude? Would you expect them to be like a a steppe nomad? Islam was born into a region with very little resources. You fight for water, you fight for food, you fight for a mate. Everything a desert nomad had, except maybe for some dates, he had to fight for and take. Winner lives, loser dies.
28 posted on 05/30/2002 7:37:15 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Bonaparte
Thanks for the ping on this interesting article.

While some may doubt this article on the aspect of objectivity because the author
is from a Catholic-affiliated university and the article is from a Catholic-based journal,
I think it is good to look at the advisory board of the journal:

Advisory Board: James Q. Wilson, Paul Weyrich, Vin Weber, Peggy Noonan, William McGurn,
Eugene McCarthy, Paul Johnson, Alexander M. Haig, Edwin J. Feulner Jr.,
William J. Bennett, Richard V. Allen

Not a bad bunch...
James Q. Wilson, sociologist who spawned the "broken windows" theory of societal
distress, which Giuliani used to clean up New York City (before some terrorist hit on 9-11);
plus a number of other luminaries such as Weyrich, Noonan, Haig, and Bennett...
and even Eugene McCarthy (is this the old Democratic Presidential candidate?).
29 posted on 05/30/2002 8:58:32 AM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA
I would bet it's the same McCarthy. As far as I know, he's still alive somewhere in Virginia.
30 posted on 05/30/2002 9:54:05 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: My Identity
Thanks for the additional sources, MI.
31 posted on 05/30/2002 9:57:04 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: Heuristic Hiker
Ping for history.
32 posted on 05/30/2002 10:01:04 AM PDT by Utah Girl
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To: sharkdiver
So it would seem that history does in fact repeat itself. HHHMMMMMMMMMMMmmm

Yes, but do we have enough Christians this time ?????

33 posted on 05/30/2002 10:45:21 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: RebelDawg
Good post I think bot religions had a lot of intolerant fanatics at that time but intolerant fanaticism is more intrinsic to Islam so the Crusaders should be viewed as heroes even if there conduct was not always noble( the 4th crusade was a particular example the Crusaders sacked Constantinople).
34 posted on 05/30/2002 1:10:53 PM PDT by weikel
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To: norton
"Pravoslavophobia" comes from the word that means "Orthodox" in Serbian and other Slavic languages, "Pravoslav".

You should not consider yourself ignorant for not knowing the term, because it is only used by a few people--I believe that it was coined by Jim Jatras. However, the degree of hatred and prejudice against Orthodox Christians in general shown by the professional Serbophobes and Russophobes in our governing elites, and their academic hangers-on, deserves to have a term for it. (For example,when they associate the very laudable tendency of the Greeks to support the Serbs with a defect in the Orthodox charcter that overlooks "Serb atrocities", or they claim that Orthodoxy caused the Russians to become communist .)

35 posted on 05/30/2002 8:42:21 PM PDT by Honorary Serb
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To: Honorary Serb
Thanks,
Is the 'slav' part associated with same sound as in 'slavic'?
Sounds like making yourself the benchmark for all around you; fairly common to some cultures/language groups I think.
36 posted on 05/31/2002 12:54:14 PM PDT by norton
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To: norton
Is the 'slav' part associated with same sound as in 'slavic'? Sounds like making yourself the benchmark for all around you; fairly common to some cultures/language groups I think.

In Serbian, "slava" means "glory". "Pravoslav" means "right glory" (or "right worship"), which is the root meaning of "Orthodox" in Greek as well.

The Serbian word for "Slavic" is "slovenska". This may well be related in its root to the Slavic (including Serbian) words for "word" and "glory". In that case, a "Slav" would not mean a "slave" (as some cheap Western linguists theorize) , but basically a noble human being, or a person who uses language. Many peoples in the world call themselves by names that basically mean "real human being" in their language, so this may have some truth to it.

In any case, at least we get away from the hokey "slave" theory, which has even been extended to say that the name "Serb" derives from the Latin "servus", whic means "slave".

37 posted on 05/31/2002 2:19:18 PM PDT by Honorary Serb
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To: Bonaparte
Thanks.
38 posted on 05/31/2002 7:23:43 PM PDT by Korth
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To: formerlib
Good one thanks, Rebel.
39 posted on 05/31/2002 7:36:56 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: norton
I'll admit to being ignorant in at least some regards: Where does this one come from???

James George Jatras. Do a google search for his name to read his writings.

Read his somewhat prophetic speech from 1998 here

40 posted on 05/31/2002 7:40:33 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Honorary Serb
Pravoslavophobia used to be available on the web but at SUC it now brings up an error.
Jatras (Jim) is a brilliant writer. I have always loved his stuff.
41 posted on 05/31/2002 7:49:31 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: weikel
That wedge of tolerance is stuck pretty deep in your thoughts. Equality and freedom in democracies gives it birth and nurture, but it does well to examine it from a distance.
42 posted on 05/31/2002 7:49:45 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Pistias
I'm tolerant as long as you don't want to f*** with me. Since Muslims do that makes me intolerant of them.
43 posted on 05/31/2002 8:12:06 PM PDT by weikel
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To: Pistias
Democracy BTW has nothing to do with freedom, democracy inevitably leads to socialism.
44 posted on 05/31/2002 8:12:49 PM PDT by weikel
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To: weikel
Democracy has everything to do with freedom! At the beginning anyways, and I fell into the old habit of referring to government by the people--in whatever form--as democracy and all that. Too much Plato.
45 posted on 05/31/2002 8:14:08 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Pistias
Democracy is mob rule and tyranny of the majority. The only way you have a free society is a Republican government with strictly limited powers( and voting has to be restricted to male property owners for this to be sustainable) or a libertarian thinking monarch/dictator( there have been a few like Pinochet). True democracy is hostile to freedom.
46 posted on 05/31/2002 8:17:45 PM PDT by weikel
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To: MarMema
Thanks for the ping.
47 posted on 06/01/2002 3:29:31 PM PDT by FormerLib
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To: ValerieUSA; RebelDawg
just bumping this topic I stumbled across. Thanks Val for sending this Crisis mag article in email a couple of years ago:
The Crusades in the Checkout Aisle: CRUSADES NONSENSE FROM U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT ^
      Posted by Dr. Brian Kopp
On News/Activism ^ 04/12/2002 9:28:57 PM PDT with 25 comments


CRISIS Magazine - e-Letter ^ | April 12, 2002
The Crusades in the Checkout Aisle Thomas F. Madden When I spied the U.S. News & World Report with the Crusades splashed across its cover, I braced for the worst. As a crusade historian, I long ago learned not to expect accuracy on this subject from the popular media. In fact, I usually avoid newspaper and magazine articles on the Crusades altogether, if only to keep my blood pressure under control. But there it was, staring me in the face. I had to read it. First, the good news. The article, written by Andrew Curry, was not dreadful. Curry did...
     

48 posted on 07/31/2004 7:19:48 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: RebelDawg

Good post. I'm going to buy his book.


49 posted on 07/31/2004 7:21:12 PM PDT by livius
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To: Cato the Censor

Cato, are you familiar with the Spanish historian Pio Moa? If you read Spanish, I recommend these honest, factual books and essays about the Spanish Civil War. They haven't been translated yet, although I would certainly be willing to do so. But they're definitely worth reading, and the shorter articles occasionally appear on libertaddigital.com, which is a conservative on-line publication in Spanish.


50 posted on 07/31/2004 7:27:09 PM PDT by livius
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