Your post #64 was really interesting. It highlights one of the weaknesses of the internet--that these conversations are so difficult to keep up---not like sitting around a blazing fire conversing.
Just a few chaotic thoughts----Don't forget that Rome transformed as well as being transformed. The simplistic Gibbonesque view is not adequate the task of understanding Western Civilization---or the lastingnature of Rome. One of the most frustrating things for me is the current lack of knowledge about the many tidepools that fed into our civilization---what's left of it. I find myself so impatient with so-called Christian fundamentalists---obviously educated in American Public schools---who have no knowlege of Western Civilization--except perhaps a visit to the Museum of the Holocaust on the Washington Mall---and accordingly what they do know, they hate---as all good enlightened folks must do to the dark and wicked past.
My mind also went off in many directions when thinking about the task of preserving the West while reading through one of the "evil Skakel/Kennedys get their cumeuppance" threads.
Our Ruling Class is remarkable for its barbarism. American political, cultural, economic Elites are totally unconnected to the land in any way. The subtext of the most oppressive legislation pouring out of Washington for the past 50 years (or even longer) has been the destruction of a landed, rooted way of life by wandering barbarians. Whenever one reads of an incident, like the murder of Martha Moxley, one is struck by the lack of community solidarity that characterizes so many of our rich and influential people.
I just finished reading a hair-raising book about the struggle over school busing in the seventies and there it is again--that struggle between powerful, savage barbarians in Washington and an uncomprehending, helpless peasantry. The Elite who forced that unnatural way of life down the throats of the benighted red-necks were cosmopolitan folks; people who spent every holiday in a different locale.
I think of the Normans and the incredible contributions to human history they made---after they set down roots. I see no hope for such an event in America or Europe---quite the contrary. The myths of Free Market mercantilism, the deforming effects of democracy worship, and the passivity and cluelessness of a huge portion of the population (maybe they're punch-drunk) make renewal impossible, in my opinion. Certainly it would require applied violence and the political and religious Elite have promulgated an artificial teaching of passivity--wrapped in the warm, fuzzy security blanket of "non-violence--so effectively that the American middle class--the class upon which any renewal would depend--is totally unsuited to the task.
I don't know if you happened to see this thread but it is another tiny piece of evidence in my case---or my rant, if you prefer:
You will notice how passive, how helpless the natives are. But the article ends with a great big slurp of American middle class Kool-aid---
"... Forces far beyond our control drive this transformation. The key to successful accommodation requires recognition of this relentless change. Our best bet is to prepare our children for the changing economy and rejoice in their success. Only excellent education will provide it. This, not attempts to recapture the past, is our best investment. Buy it...."
Another passing thought---compare the treatment given "right-winger" Pym Fortuyn in the Western press to that given Jean--the demon from hell---Marie Le Pen. This remarkable difference goes a long way towards revealing what will be allowed and, more importantly, what will not, in the struggle for Western identity.
And, what will be allowed, is essentially, nothing......