Black vs. black

Toronto Sun ^ | June 1, 2002 | Peter Worthington

[mafree]

Mafree is complaining that the facts ARE NOT the facts. Love of people isn't the same as denial.

The only thing I've denied with you is your ignoramus claim that Blacks get a majority of welfare when the percentage YOU put forth was actually less than what constitutes a majority. Now how much more simply do I have to put this so that you get it or are you that dense?

[mafree]

.. But its not, the facts say that 12% is getting 47%...and because a smaller number of people is getting a disproportionate amount, you can call it a majority.

You call this a fact? Give me a break. Until you get your head out of your butt and figure out what is factual and what is not shut up talking to me about being in denial. Did I once say that your 47% figure was untrue? No, and I dare you to come with some BS that I did.

Also, some Black males do get welfare as some are single parents and some who have no children get general assistance in states that still pay that. I'm sure that 47% includes both genders.

[mafree]

I'm disappointed in you, I had thought that you had more understanding of the situation...Oh well, if you can find a list that prevents free speech, or the facts in the name of PC...I'd like to see it.

I think I have more understanding of the situation than you do and I really don't give a rip if you're disappointed in me or not. Let's get one thing straight- nobody is denying your right to say any fool thing you want to on FR but you can bet that if you're wrong about something you will be challenged. I'm not a good little cullud gal who will just sit and grin while you spew any old nonsense about my race.

Your way off base here Mafree, there is a problem with our black citizens and denial isn't going to make it go away.

I'm not way off base about that but I think you're way off base if you forget that there's a problem with our White citizens too. You can't blame every ill in America on Blacks no matter how much you might like to.

All you'll get by threatening, denying, and that GIANT CHIP on your shoulder is the loss of another allie.

The only chip on my shoulder is the one that is a figment of your biased, paranoid imagination. Ally? Har de har har. With allies like you gimme the enemy.

If you think AMERICA owes you something because YOUR PEOPLE sold blacks into slavery...think again. If there was a debt is long been paid off. Yes there are still problems, but the majority are caused by your own hands. You and the people that think like you are going to push white America away from the plight of blacks...when that finally happens the MAJORITY will cease to exist. Like your beloved homeland AFRICA, without the handouts from the white devils...your days would be numbered.

Now who in the hell said America owed me anything? Did I say that? If you think I said that but then, you probably think all Blacks feel that way. Also, who was talking about Africa here? Why do you want to bring everything into this discussion? We don't need to push White America away from our "plight"- one thing I've known from day one is that White America as a whole doesn't give two cents about Black America. Therefore, don't wait for me to beg for your sympathy, help or approval.

Your anger toward the whites could be your races undoing.

Now who said I was angry toward Whites? If I want to get angry I will and I don't care what you do in response. Don't think for a minute that I care what you think or that I'm scared of you or that I need you.

Your people (Africa) exist only by the charity and goodwill of the white world.

I don't know whether to laugh at this bullcrap or what. You're too stupid to waste any time with.

Of course middle class blacks will not be effected in the least when the money pit dries up...but then they've moved off the plantation and became Americans...not Africans living in AMERICA.

That's what you think. For the record I think we should HELP inner city black kids. I think the great society destroyed one of this countries greatest resourses along with our moral compass. BUT, handouts are not help...we need to make fishermen, not fish eaters.

You are in need of a clue if you think I'm asking for a handout for myself or anyone else.

That RTR list might just be the solution here...

[mhking]

For the record I think we should HELP inner city black kids. I think the great society destroyed one of this countries greatest resourses along with our moral compass. BUT, handouts are not help...we need to make fishermen, not fish eaters.

I have to agree with you - I don't think anyone is saying that the rest of society should not help urban black children. However, what I think everyone is saying (albeit from different directions) is that we have to address the causes of the problems as well (i.e., poor teachers and adminstrators, ill-equipped parents, sub-standardard schools, et. al.). Throwing money at the situation won't make it go away. But creating an environment that will alleviate some of these issues will begin to make a change.

The concept of vouchers begins to move in that direction (i.e., if the better facilities cannot be found in the urban public schools, then let's make it possible for the parents to place their children where the better facilities/teachers/et.al. are).

The teachers' unions and the race warlords don't want that because it dilutes their base, and ruins their long-established status quo; hence the stuck-pig squeals of the left when vouchers are promoted and advocated.

At the same time, the generalizations of many on both sides of the issue is something that will not alleviate the problems. And isn't that one of the things that we all want?

[jimt]

I live in a city with about 60 - 70% black population, and I will grant that many of the black kids in public schools are like untrainable animals, but it's because of their parents, not their ancestors.

We had some of those "untrainable animals" in my lily white school district when I was a kid as well. But back then they were sent to reform school: now they're allowed to contaminate the classrooms of the good kids, dragging down the education level of their classrooms. We need a lot less PC "compassion" for these bad actors and a lot more practical discipline. The average scores would rise dramatically with the turds removed from the punchbowl.

[mafree]

You've put the whole point of this thread in its proper perspective. Let's help whoever needs help but not the kind of help that lets anyone, be they the student, the parent(s), the school, the politician, the community leader, society, etc. off the hook. No one is exempt from taking responsibility and doing their best.

[mafree]

BWAHAHAAAAAHHHAAAAAA!!! Don't flatter yourself- y'all ain't all that.

[CaptBlack]

I made a statement of fact that a larger proportion of blacks (ie, a larger percentage of the total black population) are on welfare than are whites and you responded by saying that, "If I recall correctly, that's not true." [post #172]. In essence, although you qualify your statement with "if I recall correctly" you are making a declarative statement refuting and negating my statement.

My comment was NOT directed at that but at what I perceived to be your claim that numerically MORE blacks were on welfare than whites. Period.

That was also my intent in my second comment; to refute what seemed to be your assertion taht numerically MORE blacks commit crimes than whites, also a non-truth. There wasn't any contradiction. Proportionally more of a group can do one thing or another while only owning a numeric minority of the sum total of acts.
YOU seemed to be suggesting that blacks numerically committed more crimes and take more welfare than any other group.

[CaptBlack]

Posted by 4ourprogeny to CaptBlack On News/Activism Jun 2 4:32 PM #186 of 255 I made a statement of fact that a larger proportion of blacks (ie, a larger percentage of the total black population) are on welfare than are whites and you responded by saying that, "If I recall correctly, that's not true." [post #172]. In essence, although you qualify your statement with "if I recall correctly" you are making a declarative statement refuting and negating my statement. Then you go on on the same post #172 by contraddicting yourself and asserting that "Blacks receive a greater proportion of many benefits like welfare. Similarly, they commit a greater proportion of violent crimes (usually against fellow blacks)." Now, I ask you, which is it? Are a larger porportion (ie, percentage) of blacks on welfare than whites? That's a legit question to ask and can only be answered with a yes or no response. First you say "that's not true" in post #172 and then immediately below this response you state that, "Blacks receive a greater proportion of many benefits like welfare." The fact that I do not have the figures handy to prove that a larger percentage of blacks are on welfare than whites does not negate that which is true. This kind of logic is akin to a reverend on TV the other day whose sermon was on whether there exists a God or not. Assuming that there is a God, the fact that the reverend was not able to effectively and efficiently communicate his message and, hence, convince or prove the existence of God, does not disprove that there is no God. Likewise, although I do not have the figures handy to prove my statement (ie, that a larger percentage of blacks receive welfare benefits than whites), does not disprove that fact.

Of course that is correct. Any blithering idiot knows that you can express a truth without having facts to back it up. What it does do is put YOU on equal footing with me, who also don't have MY facts and figures handy and must rely on a well-intentioned but nevertheless BALD assertion to make MY point. And my point wasn't necessarily to disprove your statement (for that I would have needed FACTS which both of us lacked), but rather to disagree with it (which I can do WITHOUT having my facts ready and based on my recollection alone). You spoke as if your recollection was somehow inherently more reliable than mine. You were quick to say, "You're wrong," but then had no more facts to back it up then I had to disagree with it and I'm supposed to cave?
Any "logic" you can apply to that tells you that in terms of argumentation, you had no leg to stand on. Until proven otherwise, your memory holds no better authority than mine.

[Reactionary]

I have no problem accepting that certain cultural expectations have an impact on peoples' lives. That is a very different thing that saying, however, that the environment is primary in determining what one is or becomes.

After all, with the former we're also talking about the realm of ideas; with the latter, we're talking about something radically different.

You're right about the fact that many black people have been handed over to a particular worldview that has proven to be destructive and evil. Unfortunately, that worldview has also served certain political interests. They will never give up easily.

[rdb3]

I have no problem accepting that certain cultural expectations have an impact on peoples' lives. That is a very different thing that saying, however, that the environment is primary in determining what one is or becomes.

Well I'm glad that you realize that I'm not saying culture and environment are one and the same. They are not.

Culture is everything. Environments among people has little, if any affect.