New Boy Scout troop serves Islamic youth

The City Paper (Nashville, TN) ^ | June 4, 2002 | Megan Moriarty

[Clint N. Suhks]

I am not judging Islam,

I disagree.

This does not mean that a Christian should never render judgement of any kind under any circumstances.

It means man shouldn’t judge who is or is not going to heaven.

You Baptists have a pretty strict interpretation of scripture that borders on bigotry, I know this from my Baptist friends. As far as the BSA is concerned you’re wrong. Worshiping one creator who has many names is IMHO what the intent of the program is all about, though that interpretation is rather conservative should RonF ping in here. To say that Islam doesn’t meet this standard is wrong and you’ve made no case that it isn’t and proved nothing through scripture.

[constitutiongirl]

I studied Islam for over a year in my ME studies with a Syrian professor. There is nothing in Washington-Minuteman's take on Islam that you can disprove with the Koran. The God of the Koran is blood thirsty and unappeasable...beginning with Hijra and continuing through today. In fact, according to the Encyclopedia of Religions, the word 'allah' is a derivative of the pre-Islamic Babylonian 'a-bel', a diety known in history and Hebrew/Christian scriptures as 'Baal'. Baal worship was an 'astral' religion whose crescent-moon symbol is still used by Muslims today. 21st century Islam is very close to 7th century Islam. I believe that Arabs are Ismaelites, however, that does not mean that the entity portrayed in the Koran and the hadiths is the same God portrayed in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. Islam was 'created' during Mohammed's seizures by adding the idea of Hebrew monotheism with the Ka'aba cults. Indeed, if not for his exposure to Christians in Mecca and the Jewish groups of Banu Qainuqa, Banu Nadir and Banu Quraizah (who Mohammed and his followers destroyed), his teachings would look much different. If you'd like to give Koranic examples that the nature of the entity portrayed there is the God of Abraham, feel free.

[constitutiongirl]

The muslims I know believe in Christ and his salvation and purpose.

They believe that Christ existed and was a lesser prophet, but they do not believe that salvation is offered through Him, thus nullifying His purpose. They may tell you that, but you need to ask them to explain Suras 5:75 and 9:30. Was he a 'messenger' of God or a liar? He obviously can not be both.

[RonF]

No, my reactions is "Welcome to the neighborhood", or perhaps even "Welcome to the brotherhood".

First, let's make sure everyone understands just what's being done here. This is not the formation of the Islamic Boy Scouts in the U.S. I admit I'm filling the blanks some, but from my (experienced) understanding of the BSA, what is happening is that the Salahadeen Center is sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop in their town, and has installed Mr. Ezzeir as it's Scoutmaster. I personally cannot think of a better way to give a group of young men both theoretical and practical understanding of what it means to be an American. These Scouts will have to learn what Duty to God and Duty to Country mean in America, where those concepts are separate, not joined as they are in many Islamic countries. They will be taught that "A Scout is Reverent" means

"A scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." (my emphasis).

Those that advance past First Class will probably earn Citizenship in the Community, where they will have to get and demonstrate an understanding of how their local government works by studying it, attending a meeting of it, examining a copy of the budget and explaining it, etc. They will likely earn Citizenship in the Nation merit badge, among whose requirements are to read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution (including the amendments) and explain them. They will likely earn Citizenship in the World, where they will have to explain the difference between Constitutional and non-Constitutional governments, give examples of 5 different kinds of governments, and how citizenship in the United States differs in rights, privileges, and reponsibilities than citizenship in other countries.

Even though secular organizations sponsor about 1/2 of the BSA's traditional membership, the BSA believes that all Scouts must have spiritual development. Here's the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

Despite the use of the word "God", the BSA intreprets it, and the term non-sectarian, to include non-Judeo/Christian youth and adults. Note here that the list of religious awards that the BSA allows its members to wear on their uniforms includes numerous non-Judeo/Christian religions.

The purpose of the BSA (you can read more about this in detail here) is to provide community organizations (both religious and non-religious) a program that they can use to teach central American values, and the values of that community organization, to youth. It has always been intended that Scouting be used by local organizations to inculcate that local organization's values into youth, as well as the values expressed in Scouting. Of course, many people here seem to feel that the values of Islam and the values of the United States of America are not reconcilable. I will not get into that argument, as I don't know enough about Islam to judge this. All I do know is that the BSA accepts Islamic youth and adults into Scouting, whereas they are not shy about excluding people whose values they think contradict those of Scouting, such as homosexuals and atheists.

The great value of the Scouting method is that Scouts get practical instruction as well as theoretical: you can be told until you're blue in the face that you have to accept the responsibilities of citizenship, but wait until a Scout forgets to buy the food or "forgets" to clean the pots for his patrol on a campout. His fellow patrol members will make him understand the consequences of not meeting up to his responsibilities far better than any teacher can. Very few children could give you the dictionary definition of Trustworthy; but when a Scout is rock climbing, and another Scout holding a rope is the only thing keeping him from falling 50 feet onto broken rock if he slips, both Scouts learn what that word means in their guts. I have to feel that if young men are to find a way to join the concepts of Islam and American citizenship in their hearts, Scouting is a great way to do it.

Finally, understand that these Scouts will still wear the same uniform, pass all the requirements and earn the same merit badges as Scouts of any other religion. Also, it is not at all uncommon for Scout units to limit their membership to members of the sponsoring organization and their families, and to require the leaders to be active members in the organization. What they cannot do, however, is to require any unit members that are not members of the sponsor (should they accept any) to participate in any religious activities as a condition of membership.

[RonF]

Actually for all: I'm now out of town for a week, up to Canada for fishing, canoeing, portaging, smoking cigars, ducking raindrops, etc., with my brother and his sons. Back a week from Sunday.

[Washington_minuteman]

What makes you think that I'm denominational at all, and who is RonF?

Actually, I'm probably worse than a Baptist; more of a mouthful, to be sure. Try Dispensational, Premillennial, Pretribulational Fundamentalist Christian. That usually generates some very interesting comments, to say the least, especially when I add Creationist to the mix. That really gets them going. Perhaps I should have written this paragraph at the outset, thereby saving you a lot of grief over the issue. What to you think?

If you understood that, what it means, then you will also understand why I cannot accept your proposition that Allah, Shiva, Bramham, Buddah (and his little wood box), the Acended Masters, Druid tree spirits, etc., are all different names for the G-d of the Bible.

You seem to be very fond of Matthew 7:1, but have you read down a little further?

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it"(Matt. 7:13-14).

You believe that I am wrong in judging certian belief systems to be false. You cite the Bible as supporting your conclusion, and yet the Bible condemns those systems as false, as I have shown above.

If Jesus Christ is considered to be anyone or anything other than G-d in the flesh, whoever holds that position is wrong. "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Again, I do not judge them; they judge themselves. The Bible serves to clarify the issue.

That is yet another mark of a cult. The selective use of Bible Scripture, those which, when taken out of context, can be made to appear as supporting a view that the context does not.

As far as the BSA is concerned, if they want to embrace that kind of pluralism, they do so at their own spiritual peril. Those conflicting, contridictory belief systems will only undermine and weaken the foundation. Perhaps that foundation was never very strong. When I was a Boy Scout, in the early '60's, there was little discussion, if any, about religion. It seemed that, so long as one didn't have a desire to sacrifice a chicken and divine the future based on the positioning of it's entrails, they didn't care much. Oh there was prayer, the Lord's Prayer, but not much else. Perhaps all this contention with the Sodomites they are dealing with is the result of that lax, "devil may care" attitude I experienced.

[RonF]

I'm RonF. Scout from 1960 to 1971; OA, Camp Staff, High Adventure trip at Matagamon Canoe Base (Maine), Life rank, blah, blah. Cubmaster from 10/92 to 3/97, Scoutmaster from 3/97 to present, and still going. District Committee, Event Director for Klondike Campout (sleeping in the snow for 200), Wood Badge (1996), Wood Badge Staff (present), blah, blah, blah.

The Boy Scouts is not a religion. Lord Baden-Powell got into trouble with the Church of England when they perceived some of his early writings as trying to use the Scouting Movement to supplant their religious teachings. His position, and that of the BSA, is that Scouting is a program that can be used by multiple religions to support those religions' teachings. While the founders of the BSA were (I'd think, don't know for sure) all Judeo/Christian, you can read in the earliest Boy Scout Handbooks (BSHB) that the authors regarded even the non-Christian worship practices of the Native Americans as part of American culture.

Due to the fact that the BSA allows mosques and Islamic cultural centers to sponsor units and allows Moslems to register as members, I infer that the BSA believes that there's no innate conflict between BSA's principles and Islam's, and that the BSA's program can be properly used by Moslems to support their efforts to teach their children values.

That is all I mean to establish by my previous discussion. I make no judgement as to whether this is right, nor whether the members of National Council, the Chief Scout Executive, and his minions are all going to go to hell for that. I leave that to the Judge of all. Last time I checked He claimed the sole right to do so, anyway.

[RonF]

Another thought. The BSA has accepted non-Christian members at least since 1914 or 1916, when Mormons first started registering units.

So if the BSA's recent issues are due to divine displeasure with the BSA's lack of Christian orthodoxy, it's been a long time coming.

[Washington_minuteman]

Hi Ron. Thanks for clarifying the issue and getting the thread back on track.

I had always been led to believe that the BSA was founded upon and embraced the Judeo-Christian ethic. Even when I was a Scout, that was the case. I see now that I was seriously misinformed all my ranting was flat out wrong; a defense where none was wanted, at least where the BSA is concerned. I knew this was not a thread concerning religion or cults and should have, again, left well enough alone. My apoligies to all.

[Washington_minuteman]

You'd better thank RonF for his historical perspective. You're right. One can believe whatever they want and be considered a good Scout. I was wrong and I apologise for upsetting you.

[RonF]

No problem, and thanks for the posting. Thanks again for pinging me, Clint. I'm going to print it out and suggest to my District Executive to approach any mosques in our area and use it as a recruiting tool. It's pretty hard for people to think "Those boys aren't like ours" when the boys are wearing Boy Scout uniforms and marching in the Memorial Day parade. Quite a change from seeing kids on TV wearing bogus explosives and headbands.

In regards to your comment about Scouting being organized around the Judeo/Christian ethic; it's quite common in European countries for there to be 2 or more separate Scouting organizations, commonly one for Catholics and one for Protestants. You join what you are, and if you're not one or the other .... The country would then have an umbrella organization that is the country's member of WOSM (World Organization of Scouting Movements). We have avoided that fractionation in the BSA. Given the large number of religions with significant numbers of members in the United States, I think that this is a good thing.

Always glad to talk about Scouting....

[Clint N. Suhks]

I was wrong and I apologise for upsetting you.

I’m not upset, I just disagree with Ron that in the Boy Scout Oath, “Duty to God” is truly duty to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. If it were duty to any god (deity), as Ron believes, then the BSA should change God to a lowercase “g”.

As far as Allah being a deity, that’s your interpretation, proof is in the Arabic Bible which has closer roots to Aramaic than any Latin interpretation. The Moslems I know say they pray to the God of Abraham and I’ll have to take their word, it appears you are citing scripture that has no bearing on that.

Why would G-d have decreed that the Ishmaelites were going to be trouble?

God was very favorable towards Ishmael, that’s established all over Genesis. There’s so little known about his life that most everything written about him is conjecture. I’m not here to defend Islam or the Quran nor would I defend Judaism for that matter. But by your interpretations of scripture, LDS is equally a cult as is Islam.

I have, however, found your perspective very interesting and look forward to further investigation. Thank you for the time you spent writing me, no apologies necessary.

[Clint N. Suhks]

I studied Islam for over a year in my ME studies with a Syrian professor.

Assuming your professor is Moslem, would he agree that he is praying to a deity and not the God of Abraham?

[constitutiongirl]

I'll explain a little about him and what he believes.He was raised a Shia Muslim. He left Syria for Iran when he was 17 to study in Tehran. He is actually more of an agnostic since he could not intellectually reconcile the fact that Islam is rooted in Arabian paganism while at the same time claiming to be the pure revelation of the God of Abraham. Historically, Ishmaelites fell into paganism and abandoned the God of Abraham. He had a problem believing that the same God who revealed himself through the Hebrews and Christians, would then 600 years later, call for the virtual destruction of His own people. The Koran is quite schizophrenic on the subject of 'people of the Book.' It says to protect monasteries in one place and then to destroy those who do not submit to Mohammed's revelations in another. He, like scores of other intellectuals, fled the revolution. He and many others felt that originally Islam only impeded the advances of mid-Asian cultures by subjecting their ideas and thoughts into a narrow mindset that did not allow for intellectual advancement. As Islamic advancement cooled after the losses in Europe, they were able to continue evolving culturally (the Mideast being home to an advanced culture during that time). The return to 'pure' 7th century Islam in the 20th century, set those cultures back to that time. He doesn't see the Islamists as highjacking the religion, but returning to the original, unlearned, narrow and bloody past.

[Coleus]

The Muslims pray to a black rock in Mecca, they face it 5 times a day in which to pray, the God of Abraham, I Am, is everywhere, we Christians/Catholics/Jews can pray to God anywhere at anytime, because we know that God is omnipotent and not a black rock in Mecca where they preach to kill all who do not believe including millions of Christians throughout Europe and Africa. CHRISTIAN MARTYRDOM: THE UNTOLD MIDDLE EASTERN CRISIS

[Polybius]

Hindu Scouts, Enviro Scouts, Boys that want to be Girls Scouts, Short Guy Scouts, Special Scouts, Anything but Christian Scouts...

When I was in Boy Scouts, our Troop was based at a Catholic school and it was predominantly Catholic. My boy is now in a Troop based out of a Presbyterian Church and every Troop meeting is ended with a Christian prayer. The Mormons have designated Scouting as the Mormon Church's official youth activity and there are many LDS Troops around the country.

The Boy Scouts promote "Duty to God". How you define "God" is not dictated by the Boy Scouts of America.

The Boy Scouts can earn Religious Emblems (illustrated below) in their religion, be it Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Mormon, Quaker, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

If these Muslim BSA Troops are there to promote American values, more power to them. If they are promoting anti-Americanism, I would wonder why the founder would not form a "Junior Jihadist Club" rather than an All-American organization like the Boy Scouts.

[Polybius]

For illustrations of the different Boy Scout religious awards, see Post #56.

Duty to God and Duty to Country (as in America). That is what the Boy Scouts teach. Our war is not with Muslims (as in Turkish Muslims). Our war is with Islamist fanatics. If the Boy Scouts teach love of America to Muslim boys in this country, it is carrying out it's mission.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

"Hindu Scouts, Enviro Scouts, Boys that want to be Girls Scouts, Short Guy Scouts, Special Scouts, Anything but Christian Scouts, Everything-Hyphenated Scouts........"

• Scouting for Catholic Youth
• Scouting Serves the Jewish Community
• Scouting in the Islamic Community
• Scouting in the Buddhist Community
• Scouting for Lutheran Youth
• Scouting in Protestant Churches
• Scouting in Churches of Christ
• Cub Scout Leader Basic Training
• Scouting for Presbyterian Youth

Scouting in the Islamic Community

Background

Scouting serves an important role in the Islamic community. Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, and Venturing crews operated by Islamic organizations can be found in major cities throughout the United States.

In 1982, the National Islamic Committee on Scouting (NICS) was formed by a group of concerned Muslims who represented many national Muslim organizations. Primarily, the NICS is responsible for formulating policies that govern the formation of Scouting in Islamic organizations and for guiding their cooperation with the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America. The NICS also establishes policies affecting the participation of Muslim men and women in Scouting through Islamic centers and mosques and advises the BSA National Council in all matters relating to Scouting among Muslims.

---

Member Scout Associations of the World Organization of the Scout Movement and Their Membership (www.scout.org)

See Key Below

Albania (4)	1,284
Algeria (2)	10,045
Angola (1)	5,600
Argentina (5)	45,452
Armenia (6)	2,035
Australia (3)	109,527
Austria (4)	16,323
Azerbaijan	1,213
Bahamas (5)	3,173
Bahrain (2)	1,820
Bangladesh (3)	1,325,014
Barbados (5)	3,041
Belarus (6)	7,500
Belgium (4)	91,198
Belize (5)	869
Benin (1)	19,605
Bhutan (3)	1,145
Bolivia (5)	7,600
Bosnia & Herzegovina (4)	8,000
Botswana (1)	4,660
Brazil (5)	60,518
Brunei Darussalam (3)	2,617
Bulgaria (4)	2,000
Burkina Faso (1)	10,165
Burundi (1)	6,661
Cameroon (1)	6,535
Canada (5)	238,957
Chad (1)	8,132
Chile (5)	35,180
China, Scouts of (3)	69,353
Colombia (5)	13,636
Comoros (1)	2,200
Congo, The Democratic Republic of The (1)	62,842
Costa Rica (5)	11,729
Cote-d¹Ivoire (1)	6,436
Croatia (4)	3,607
Cyprus (4)	6,183
Czech Republic (4)	26,133
Denmark (4)	51,727
Dominica (5)	1,100
Dominican Republic (5)	6,047
Ecuador (5)	5,536
Egypt (2)	74,598
El Salvador (5)	4,180
Estonia (4)	1,131
Fiji (3)	2,445
Finland (4)	30,545
France (4)	113,570
Gabon (1)	3,835
Gambia (1)	14,134
Georgia (6)	1,063

Germany (4)	127,012
Ghana (1)	2,311
Greece (4)	19,467
Grenada (5)	1,542
Guatemala (5)	7,247
Guyana (5)	294
Haiti (5)	9,859
Honduras (5)	4,319
Hong Kong	69,121
Hungary (4)	13,369
Iceland (4)	1,808
India (3)	1,963,266
Indonesia (3)	9,961,921
Ireland (4)	38,784
Israel (4)	21,920
Italy (4)	108,656
Jamaica (5)	5,526
Japan (3)	227,566
Jordan (2)	14,238
Kenya (1)	190,505
Kiribati (3)	1,333
Korea, Republic of (3)	247,445
Kuwait (2)	6,061
Latvia (4)	1,179
Lebanon (2)	8,450
Lesotho (1)	371
Liberia (1)	2,418
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (2)	14,220
Liechtenstein (4)	421
Lithuania (4)	1,500
Luxembourg (4)	5,634
Macedonia, the former Yugoslav, Republic of (4)	3,443
Madagascar (1)	9,473
Malaysia (3)	96,409
Maldives (3)	4,518
Malta (4)	2,900
Mauritania (2)	3,790
Mauritius (1)	3,009
Mexico (5)	59,531
Moldova, Republic of (6)	1,540
Monaco (4)	67
Mongolia (3)	6,623
Morocco (2)	12,304
Mozambique (1)	11,403
Namibia (1)	1,378
Nepal (3)	25,814
Netherlands (4)	59,315
New Zealand (3)	28,531
Nicaragua (5)	2,298
Niger (1)	3,241
Nigeria (1)	46,701

Norway (4)	15,234
Oman (2)	9,495
Pakistan (3)	508,176
Palestinian Authority (2)	20,275
Panama (5)	2,367
Papua New Guinea (3)	1,674
Paraguay (5)	1,340
Peru (5)	12,727
Philippines (3)	3,491,911
Poland (4)	117,733
Portugal (4)	66,766
Qatar (2)	6,000
Romania (4)	4,930
Russian Federation	14,000
Rwanda (1)	5,479
San Marino (4)	200
Saudi Arabia (2)	19,267
Senegal (1)	5,882
Sierra Leone (1)	7,902
Singapore (3)	11,290
Slovakia (4)	3,680
Slovenia (4)	6,624
South Africa (1)	18,496
Spain (4)	82,971
Sri Lanka (3)	21,653
St. Lucia (5)	393
St. Vincent and the Grenadines (5)	1,017
Sudan (2)	13,550
Suriname (5)	2,601
Swaziland (1)	4,994
Sweden (4)	65,486
Switzerland (4)	29,909
Tajikistan (6)	1,100
Tanzania, United Republic of (1)	49,993
Thailand (3)	1,237,515
Togo (1)	15,759
Trinidad & Tobago (5)	6,600
Tunisia (2)	40,920
Turkey (4)	6,257
Uganda (1)	65,152
United Arab Emirates (2)	5,824
United Kingdom (4)	542,277
United States (5)	6,253,606
Uruguay (5)	4,510
Venezuela (5)	10,754
Yemen (2)	6,481
Yugoslavia (4)	12,080
Zambia (1)	7,427
Zimbabwe (1)	3,111

 

(1) Africa Region	(2) Arab Region	(3) Asia-Pacific Region
(4) European Region	(5) Inter-American Region	(6) Eurasia Region

 

SUPPORT BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA
"Character Counts...Please Contribute Directly to the Scouts Today!!"
CLICK ABOVE TO FIND YOUR AREA

---

Visit: Freeper Tips and Helps for posting photos, links and other HTML goodies.
You can also bookmark the thread at:  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/562247/posts

---

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  
.....  George Washington

[Cindy]

re post#58: Thank you Texas Yellow Rose for that information. I appreciate it. Now for all of you parents and scouts reading this thread here are some links of interest:

U.S. Scouting Service: "What the Scout Law Means to Me" by John Wayne Scouting Legal Defense Fund ROYAL AMBASSADORS CHRISTIAN SERVICE BRIGADE AMERICAN HERITAGE GIRLS MISSIONETTES - Girls Clubs PIONEER CLUBS Ranger DJ's ROYAL RANGERS Web Site ROYAL RANGERS Outpost

[Cindy]

re post#56: Thank you for the information Polybius. I appreciate it.