Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
And they knew not until the flood came...
Personally, I find your contentions MUCH MORE at odds WITH FATHER'S CLEAR STATEMENTS than those of the typical spokesperson you decry. Messages to follow will somewhat illustrate the point.
Perhaps Scripture will have little impact on your reasoning but I like the Scriptures in the following on the topics touched on above.
"ONLY WHEN DAY AND NIGHT CEASE --ONLY THEN WILL ISRAEL CEASE TO BE A NATION BEFORE ME!"
By Steve Shultz steve@elijahlist.com
Can you imagine how utterly angry, furious, and LIVID Satan must have been to hear God speak through the prophet Jeremiah about Israel's enduring future. . .
Jeremiah: 31: 35-36 "This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar--the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 "ONLY IF THESE DECREES VANISH FROM MY SIGHT," declares the LORD," will the descendants of Israel EVER CEASE TO BE A NATION BEFORE ME."
Not only does the prophecy say Israel will continue, but that it will ALWAYS continue AS A NATION!!
. . .
Further, just as the cross of Jesus made a public spectacle of Satan's defeat, the Lord, even in the Old Testament wanted to rub Satan's nose in it. So he continues, through Jeremiah, the above prophecy by restating the fact in this amazing way, saying that this promise will endure, even if Israel's sin continues for a season . . .
Jeremiah 31: 37 "This is what the LORD says: 'Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel BECAUSE OF ALL THEY HAVE DONE," declares the LORD.
Remember, in the previous verse (vs. 36) God's promise through Jeremiah is that Israel will continue AS A NATION and it will continue, even though others would accuse [DO YOU--Aleksandar Vojvoda, jlogajan, trevorjohnson--REALLY want to be included in that "others"????] "But Look at all the sins they have committed!"
Would you like to read it ALL in context?
Jer 31:33-32:1
(33) "THE IS THE COVENANT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THAT TIME," declares the LORD." I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (34) No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD." For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
(35) This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar--the LORD Almighty is his name: (36) "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "WILL THE DESCENDANTS OF ISRAEL EVER CEASE TO BE A NATION BEFORE ME. (37) This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel BECAUSE OF ALL THEY HAVE DONE," declares the LORD.
(38) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. (39) The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. (40) The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
"I tell YOU, YOU [Jerusalem and the Jewish people, as a NATION] you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Luke 13:35
A few days later, at the crucifixion of the Jewish Jesus at the hands of both Gentile and Jew, the High Priest prophesied (without intending it) that Jesus had died for the NATION of Israel. But don't take my word for it . . .
"Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was HIGH PRIEST that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that ONE MAN DIE FOR THE PEOPLE than that the WHOLE NATION PERISH." John 11:49-50
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HOW WILL ISRAEL LOOK TO GOD'S DELIVERANCE --- WITH THE PASSOVER CELEBRATION IN MIND
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Jeremiah is talking again. A few chapters earlier. He is prophesying about the days we are living.
Jeremiah is essentially speaking into the time NOW, when Israel and the Palestinians are fighting and most of the world opinion has turned against Israel. He's comparing and contrasting when people celebrate the PASSOVER--and what their celebration will EVENTUALLY include!!
At the PASSOVER, Jews around the world declare and remember God's faithfulness in rescuing and delivering Israel from slavery in Egypt. But Jeremiah, speaking of how the Passover celebrates this great deliverance ---- prophesies that the time is coming in the future (the future we are NOW COMING INTO) when Israel will no longer celebrate the Passover as the greatest event but they will celebrate a future DELIVERANCE as the greatest event. Read it for yourself . . .
"So then, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when people will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' 8 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' Then they will live in their own land." Jer 23:7-8
Jews are coming home by the hundreds of thousands! Satan is furious. He does not want this prophecy to be fulfilled. More are coming. Millions more. Even from the other countries around the world, they are coming to Israel.
And Satan HATES it!! He is doing all in his power to stir up hatred and war against Israel. He is trying to turn world opinion against them. He is doing it through false accusation and in some cases true accusations. As in any war, neither side is completely virtuous. But as we showed above, God's promise of deliverance is NOT BASED ON THE VIRTUE OF ISRAEL, BUT IS BASED ON HIS PROMISE AND DESIRE TO RESTORE THEM. Therefore . . .
This war is not against flesh and blood but against Principalities and Powers.
There are many innocent victims on both sides of this conflict, Palestinian and Israeli. But this thing is being orchestrated by Satan -- He wants Ishmael and Isaac in a war --brother to brother.
What is the part of Christians to pray?
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THIS WAR IS ABOUT THE JEWS COMING HOME
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We must pray against this war. It may break out but we must pray that it will NOT break out --outside of the Lord's timing.
And we must pray that there will be reconciliation between Jews and Palestinians--- Because this war is not about those two sides except that the Lord's desire is to bring reconciliation to these brothers, Ishmael and Isaac.
But make no mistake... This war is about the Jews coming home according to the prophet Jeremiah and all the major prophets--and it's about Satan wanting to wipe the Jewish people off the map by driving them into the sea.
Finally, we must pray that all Christians---- and America, will stand with Israel, THOUGH THE HEAVENS FALL! Remember, Jesus died for his own Jewish people and for the NATION of Israel too (not just the Church). And because His blood is at work, He will bring correction to their sins, and shortcomings.
But Israel's sins HAVE NOT and WILL NOT nullify the promises of God.
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REMEMBER THE PROMISE:
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"This is what the LORD says: 'Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel BECAUSE OF ALL THEY HAVE DONE," declares the LORD. Jeremiah 31: 37
Pray too for America --- for in standing with Israel, or not ---- AMERICA WILL DECIDE HER FUTURE!
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "MAY THOSE WHO LOVE YOU BE SECURE [and May America love Israel] May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels." For the sake of MY BROTHERS AND FRIENDS I will say, "Peace be within you." For the sake of the house of the LORD our God, I will seek your prosperity. Ps 122:6-9
OF COURSE, if you think all the above is nonsense about events long since historically past; 100% totally ended periodthen you are welcome to try yawning through events coming up shortly.
But I wouldnt recommend it.
For one, Father may have some feelings about willfully refusing to believe that He meant what He said and said what He meant.
For another, I suspect events may quite soon enough become more dramatic than yawns would be fitting for. 9/11 was just a warm-up. IF youd REALLY like to test your contentions at the cost of 10s of thousands of more American lives, I suppose you could lobby hard for us to dump Israel on its tin ear. Israel would not end up suffering beyond their period of coming discipline for being so apostate. Father God will insist that they are protected as a NATION and as a people even if He has to clone additional children of Abraham from hairs in his tomb or create millions more legions of angels.
But if you prefer, please dont allow my pontificating to disturb your sleep, sleep on. . . . while you can.
Many, if not all, of the key points of the typical END TIMES positions have been reliably traced back to the early Christian Church of the first few decades--few hundred years. The Darby, 19th century claim is not giving the full facts by a significant margin.
MY BIBLE indicates to me that my first responsibility is to LOVE GOD WHOLLY and my 2nd to Love my neighbor as myself.
The Church in terms of an organization or even in terms of the Church Universal is a ways down my list.
In terms of Loving God and Honoring Him, I figure honoring, supporting, blessing those/that NATION HE SAID TO BLESS is a good way to make Him smile. I'm really into causing Him to smile.
I *******KNOW******* what I felt deep and intensely in my spirit when the bus drove me into Jerusalem the first time. That experience trumps a very long list of arguments.
If you think Jerusalem's being a burden for the whole world is not a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, you might consider getting your logic RPM's adjusted. They just don't seem to be going around fast enough to cope with the data.
Regards
J.R.
Ezekiel 37:16-20
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For
Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions [2270]: then take
another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for
all the house of Israel his companions [2270]:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in
thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt
thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of
Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his
fellows [2270], and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their
eyes.
02270 chaber {khaw-bare'}
from 02266; TWOT - 598c
AV - companions 7, fellow 4, knit together 1; 12
adj
1) united
n m
2) associate, fellow, worshippers
3) companion
Modern Hebrew [chaver] 1 friend, comrade. 2 partner, associate. 3 fellow,
member. 4 scholar
>>>
02266 chabar {khaw-bar'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 598; v
AV - couple 8, join 8, couple together 4, join together 3, compact 1,
charmer + 02267 1, charming + 02267 1, have fellowship 1, league 1,
heap up 1; 29
1) to unite, join, bind together, be joined, be coupled, be in
league, heap up, have fellowship with, be compact, be a charmer
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to unite, be joined
1a2) to tie magic charms, charm
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to unite with, make an ally of
1b2) to unite, join, ally
1c) (Pual)
1c1) to be allied with, be united
1c2) to be joined together
1d) (Hiphil) to join together, pile up (words)
1e) (Hithpael) to join oneself to, make an alliance, league together
***
Modern Hebrew lit. "hand + hand" (yad + yad) = [yadid] 1 friend. 2 beloved.
03039 y@diyd {yed-eed'}
from the same as 01730; TWOT - 846a
AV - beloved 5, wellbeloved 2, loves 1, amiable 1; 9
n m
1) one beloved, beloved
adj
2) lovely
3039 from the same as 01730...
01730 dowd {dode} or (shortened) dod {dode}
from an unused root meaning properly, to boil; TWOT - 410a; n m
AV - beloved 34, uncle 16, love(s) 8, father's brother 2,
wellbeloved 1; 61
1) beloved, love, uncle
1a) loved one, beloved
1b) uncle
1c) love (pl. abstract)
Compare (same spelling, dalet vav dalet):
01732 David {daw-veed'} rarely (fully); Daviyd {daw-veed'}
from the same as 01730; TWOT - 410c; n pr m
AV - David 1076; 1076
David = "beloved"
1) youngest son of Jesse and second king of Israel
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
YHWH + the letter dalet ("door") spells Yehuda.
from TWOT #431e:
delet is to be differentiated from other words of aproximately the same meaning. In relation to sha'ar "gate", delet represents only the swinging door, while sha'ar denotes the entire structure of the gate. In relation to petah "door, entrance", petah is the entrance to the house. delet is a device for closing and opening the entrance. Also, delet is used only in connection with a built house.
Thanks for a breath of sanity! I believe we can accurately call the sensationalist doom-mongers of the early '70s the "abortionists of the Jesus movement." When millions of fervant, zealous new believers appeared on the American scene, the devil was ready to shunt their energies off into puerile, silly, stupid speculations. And of course, the devil really approves of an ideology which cedes to him the right to run the whole earth!
The tragedy is, so much ink is spilled, so much energy wasted, on these fools errands today. O God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, grant that our children may live to see the end of this curse, this blight, this "last days madness" upon Your people!
I did a survey on an "end times" discussion board last month, to determine the direction of change. A few die-hard dispensationalists said they'd not changed their eschatological expectations. A larger number of godly and scholarly folks spoke of having left dispensensationalism behind.
There were zero respondents who had moved from biblical postmillenialism to dispensensationalism.
Among literate and thinking Christians, the trend is clear. Among those who substitute emotion, shouting, and incantations for thought, their hysteria is evidence of the perceived weakness of their position.
"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Matt. 24:34).God's promises are not null and void. They were fulfilled in Christ. As the nation of Israel was once the bearer of God's light to the world, the church is now that "holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9).This is from the chapter in Matthew that dispensational premillennialists refer to when talking about the Great Tribulation.
"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Rom. 9:6b-7a).
Translation: The true Israel is not necessarily made up of biological Jews. Paul tells us in Romans 2:29, "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter."
"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29).
Translation: All believers in Christ are Abraham's seed (i.e., Christians belong to the true Israel.)
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