The Pandemonium Perpetrated by the Premillennialist Paradigm

OpinioNet.com ^ | 06/06/2002 | Lee R. Shelton IV

[Quix]

I agree. But it doesn't mean we have to be tongue or finger tied.

[Zack Nguyen]

Calling it anti-semitic is skating on pretty thin ice too, when several very large denominations hold to it.

Look, God is not finished with Israel. Paul makes that very clear. However, it clear that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. The seed of Abraham is the church.

I am not saying that "Replacement Theology" is correct, but surely you can see whay someone might believe it.

[Quix]

I'D BE A LOT MORE THRILLED if someone MUCH WISER, MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE, MUCH MORE GIFTED were to state the Biblical case in such matters.

I make my feeble efforts mostly because it doesn't seem like there's a very significant rising to the occasion on the part of others better able to do so.

[Biblebelter]

My support of Israel is not based in theology but in politics. I would like to see the world organized by nations whose leaders are democratically elected. The enemies of Israel are many, but I do not see enemies who have maintained their national sovereignity and have democratically elected leadership. I do believe that Israel has enemies in the EU, but those countries have ceded most of their sovereignity by their membership in the EU. How many countries in the world are nationalistic and have democratically elected leadership? The truth is that the supporters of Israel do not do so out of blind theological zealotry as the author implies, that distinction better belongs to a major portion of Israel's enemies.

[Iowegian]

Calling it anti-semitic is skating on pretty thin ice too, when several very large denominations hold to it.

It's not a value judgement, it is a statement of fact.

Opposed to Israel, or in place of Israel, is by definition, anti-Semitic. Sorry you don't like the term, I can understand why, it carries a lot of baggage with it.

Look, God is not finished with Israel. Paul makes that very clear. However, it clear that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. The seed of Abraham is the church.

An unnatural, grafted in branch, not the tree itself. Or put another way, adopted sons, not natural children. We don't take the place of the true children, we were adopted to make the real children jealous.

I am not saying that "Replacement Theology" is correct, but surely you can see whay someone might believe it.

As best as I can tell, it is tradition mostly.

[Iowegian]

And don't forget we share common enemies with Israel in the Middle East, like those who blow up buildings full of innocent victims here and in Israel.

[Iowegian]

In deeply saddens my heart to see evidence that Replacement Theology is alive and well here at FR. It's troubling.

It is as common here on FR as in the real world, but most people in the real world don't share this view often, unless you ask them about it specifically.

[Zack Nguyen]

Your definition of anti-Semitism is very loose. I would personally define as despising Jews murderously simply because they are Jews. Presbyterians, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians do not hate Jews for no reason.

I know anti-semitism when I see it. And you'll have to go to greater lengths to prove to me that Reformed eschatology is sytemically anti-semitic.

I do not believe that the church was God's Plan B, or that a saved, sanctified collection of Jews and Gentiles was somehow an unexpected development brought about only because Plan A didn't work out for God. I do not believe that the church is an accident. Indeed, I believe it is aholy priesthood and a chosen people.

[Iowegian]

In deeply saddens my heart to see evidence that Replacement Theology is alive and well here at FR. It's troubling.

It is as common here on FR as in the real world, but most people in the real world don't share this view often, unless you ask them about it specifically. But we are the threat to them, just see the thoughts expressed by the writer of the piece. To them, we're endangering the peace of the world by insisting that Israel is Israel and Jews are Jews.

[nicollo]

The larger the font the less I read.
Especially with colors.

I do enjoy the effect of holding the page-down key. Makes a lovely kaleidescope.

[Iowegian]

Your definition of anti-Semitism is very loose. I would personally define as despising Jews murderously simply because they are Jews. Presbyterians, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians do not hate Jews for no reason. I know anti-semitism when I see it. And you'll have to go to greater lengths to prove to me that Reformed eschatology is sytemically anti-semitic.

Yes, my definition is probably not the same as the common one. I don't believe that people who believe in Replacement Theology are necessarily prejudiced against Jews, but in my experience, when you question many (most?) who are prejudiced against Jews, they cite Replacement Theology to prove their points. Coincidence? I think not.

I do not believe that the church was God's Plan B, or that a saved, sanctified collection of Jews and Gentiles was somehow an unexpected development brought about only because Plan A didn't work out for God. I do not believe that the church is an accident. Indeed, I believe it is aholy priesthood and a chosen people.

Straw man arguments. I never claimed any of the these arguments that you oppose, so what is your point?

[2sheep]

L 5361 philadelphos {fil-ad'-el-fos}
from 5384 and 80; TDNT - 1:144,22; adj
AV - love as brethren 1; 1
1) loving brother or sister

Good post!  Yes we see the two sticks.

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.  17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

How can anyone claiming to be a Christian say that he loves God, but at the same time call Jews "Unbelievers" and worse or believe Christians have replaced Israel?  He cannot do that and be a true Christian.  He is deceived.  It is an outworking of Antinomianism, the false teaching that one does not have to obey God.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[2sheep]

>Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation [Yesha] of God is sent unto the JEWS, and that they will hear it.  And when he had said these words, the CHURCH departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

falling away:  646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

Excellent post.  Yes.  The warnings:  Abide in me...continue in the Word...be fruitful...boast not against the branches...lest ye be cut off. Many didn't believe that and boasted.  They fell for it.  Fallen away.  The false prophets denied the Word/Lord in Ro 11:25 and said one could not be cut off.  The gospel is now hid from those who believed the false prophets.  They went after them:

 Lu 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
--
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And Now:  blindness in part is happened to the CHURCH, as the fulness of the JEWS come in.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

[2sheep]

You wrote, emphasis mine: > I have a comment, and please feel free to critique. Was not the covenant with Israel that God would scatter tham when they are disobedient, but bring them back together if they repent and renew the covenant?

> So are dispensationalists claiming that ethnic Israel repented of their sins in 1948 when they were made a physical, political nation by the UN? This is impossible, because the basis of repentance is faith in Christ, and the Jewish nation has as yet offerend no such repentance as a whole

> So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event?

Your entire argument hinges on your statement in bold type above. Let me turn that around and put it to you that your Messiah is identified in John chapter 1 as the Word made flesh. Now, if it pleased G-d to hide his identity from them for a time, might not He also have hidden from you how Israel gets saved? You might like to pray about that and see if light dawns in your understanding. Hint: read Romans chapter 11.

[George W. Bush]

I don't entirely accept the idea of the Christian church being the only Israel in the modern age. I do believe that God will not be finished with Israel until the Second Coming. The Old Covenant has passed away but not God's plan for the ancient nation of Israel.

Your comments on the prophecy hucksters were dead-on. Someone loaned me the first Left Behind book. My eyes rolled back in my head when the hero was in such turmoil over whether he should focus on the spiritual welfare of the new woman in his life or just exploit her sexually (since his wife was already raptured and he could consider himself a widower of some sort). Real soap-opera material there. The book was laughable. One might almost suspect the authors of trying to ridicule the Bible and evangelical Christians in general. I seem to recall that at the end of the book, they were getting ready to assemble a "Tribulation Force" to fight the Antichrist.

The whole miserable spectacle even outdoes Hal Lindsey's attempt to turn Daniel and Revelation into a nuclear warfare manual. One might as well turn to The Omen as Bible study material.

One of the strange things about the book and the series generally is that they make being "Left Behind" much more interesting and more desirable than being raptured with Christ, almost as though it would be better not to be raptured and instead to suffer the Tribulation period. Very odd when you think about it since the traditional thrust of this genre is escaping the Tribulation.

For more comedic relief, visit rapture-ready.com.

[Thinkin' Gal]

It is perfectly plausible to construe the Scripture about "this generation" as...

Just do a KJV search on the phrase "this generation". There is common theme. Heart condition: yetzer hara.

[Quix]

Good for you.

I'm happier when people who like colors read colors.

I'm a bit like the handicapped. . . features of my personality tend to weed out fickle friends.

[sheltonmac]

"I'm still trying to even imagine what emotional, theological, psycho-dynamic--ANY-reason there might be for your interpretation. . . it's still hard for me to explain."

Here's a wild and wacky thought..... Perhaps Jesus meant exactly what he said: "This generation." I don't think there is really any need to "construe" anything from the text. you are struggling to find a "plausible" interpretation because you are coming at it with the premillennialist preconception. Reading it any other way would disrupt your paradigm.

I don't claim to have all the answers, and I am still a rather new student of eschatology, but I have seen enough to know that dispensational premillennialism is full of holes. Every argument I have seen thrown out over the years never addresses the fact that Paul tells us that all believers are Abraham's seed and are heirs to the promise. Heirs to what promise? The promise God made to Abraham. We have been grafted into the vine. God never abandoned Israel. Israel is us—the church. The last I checked, Jesus was still the way, the truth and the life. The hope for the Jewish people, in both Old and New Testaments, is the same hope of the Gentiles—Christ the Messiah. The Old Covenant pointed to the one who would come. The New Covenant points to the one who has come and now reigns over his kingdom.

[sheltonmac]

"I am curious at what point in the unfolding of Scriptural prophecy after prophecy with the unfolding of the morning paper . . . when in the process are folk on your side of constructions of reality . . . begin to realize they've misconstrued things. . . that will indeed be fascinating."

Pray tell, which specific Scriptural prophecies are unfolding in the morning paper?

[sheltonmac]

"This Scripture does not exclude Israeli's in the least. It merely adds."

It does exclude those Israelis who do not come to a saving knowledge of Christ. As Paul pointed out, "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Rom. 9:6b-7a).