Posted on 06/24/2002 4:21:21 PM PDT by WakeUpChristian
So Americans can sell arms to the PLO I guess. Is there anything Israel does you will not defend? Zimbabwe is an outlaw country. We won't trade with them and the EU has frozen their bank accounts. So what is a country we send billions of dollars in aid to doing selling them military equipment?
Israel was right to trade with apartheid South Africa. The boycott only hurt blacks in the country. Israel is not right to deal with Mugabe. And we should tell Israel to stop. Know of any other countries which sell arms to Zimbabwe, let me know. They should be exposed too.
Americans should be concerned over what Israel does. Most of the world looks on Israel as an arm of America.
See that's how real Democracy works.
I believe both companies did business with Germany before the war. Apparently, however, the DeBeers Company sold or allowed crucially important industrial diamonds to reach the German war machine through most of the war
Don't start slandering Americans for helping Nazi Germany. We defeated Nazism. There is more than enough stuff to throw back at those who try to pin Hitler on us.
That question got me to thinking. The only thing I consistently defend about Israel is its right to exist. I only posted to this thread because you pinged me and I only made the comments I did because the only posts I've seen of yours are similar to this one.
Curious, I searched your posts. You say this is your position;
I also have a problem with Israel's actions in other areas than the mid east and Israel not shutting down the criminal activities for recent arrivals from the Soviet Block. I could, and do, make similiar criticisms of many more countries which are allied with us. Israel is in the news, that is why I comment on these threads.
I'll take you at your word.
Don't start slandering Americans for helping Nazi Germany. We defeated Nazism. There is more than enough stuff to throw back at those who try to pin Hitler on us.
Ford and IBM have been criticized for just such actions - for doing business with the Germans during the war. I can't vouch for the truth of the allegations, but if they are true then they should be criticized and it's not slander. Furthermore criticizing them is not the same as criticizing America, anymore than criticizing Russian Jewish criminals is the same as criticizing Israel. To the extent that either government was complicit in criminal actions they too should be criticized.
That is, if you believe in applying the same standards to everyone.
Where's she been lately, anyway?
If Israel were the only country that sold weapons to dictators and tyrants, it would be the richest nation on earth. As it turns out, though, international arms dealing is, in general, a seamy and unsavory business.
While politics figure in, it all eventually boils down to money, and whether they are nationally-owned or private, weapons manufacturers are always looking for customers for their products.
I agree that Israel (and any other nation, for that matter) shouldn't deal with scum like Mugabe. However, even in the context of Zimbabwean politics, it seems rather trivial to focus on Israel for selling these modified trucks to Mugabe when there are much more significant forces at play, both with respect to arming his regime and financing it.
I undoubtedly come across as an apologist for Israel from time to time, as I do support that nation. However, I don't believe Israel to be virtuous beyond reproach.
But then again, my own beloved United States are hardly pure as the driven snow, either. How many dictators have we armed and propped up? A few names, such as Chiang Kai-Shek, Ferdinand Marcos, Shah Reza Pahlavi, Syngman Rhee, Francisco Franco, Chun Doo-Hwan, Nguyen Khanh, Lon Nol, Thanom Kittikachorn, Suharto, Anastasio Somoza, Augusto Pinochet, Manuel Noriega, Pervez Musharraf and, of course, Saddam Hussein come to mind. There are many more, dating back to the 1800s, and that's not even mentioning the assassinations and failed coups we've sponsored over the years.
Does the U.S. track record with dictators and puppet governments justify Israeli commerce with such regimes? No. It is, however, good to bring to light and discuss matters such as these, and important to keep them in perspective, as well.
I suspect there is more than just armored vehicles pouring into Zimbabwe, and not just from Israel.
Imal
:-)
Pinochet is a hero. Ask Margaret Thatcher.
Chris Dodd took to the floor of the House and demanded we cut off aid to Lon Nol. The result was 2.5 million slaughtered by Pol Pot's troops.
Franco very well could be what stopped Hitler. He did not allow German troops to transit the country to take Gibraltar. He saved over 80,000 Jews. Any Jew which made it to Spain was safe.
Musharraf is useful and better than any alternative.
Many of the rest were forced on us by the Cold War. Our policy was to support authoritarian regimes in order to defeat totalitarian ones. It wasn't often pretty, but it worked.
You seem to say that we should judge Israel's actions regarding Mugabe by some universal standard. I don't. I only judge it by how it affects the United States. Israel or Israeli citizens arming Liberia, China, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone and Angola is not, in general, in our interest. Israel selling to India is. For some reason, we do not seem to have the leverage over Israel we should. The relationship on our part should be more hard nosed.
My contention here is that we have not been shy about installing, aiding and supporting dictators. That transcends selling some weapons to them, and makes for a weak moral basis for criticism. There are even allegations floating around that the U.S. has something to do with Mugabe's continued presidency. Of course, I'll believe that when I see some reasonably solid evidence.
The broader point is that Israel's involvement in Zimbabwe isn't necessarily an international anomaly, nor a sign of a corrupt nation (or perhaps we all are?). Need I even dredge up the Rhodesia days?
Anyway, the discussion and investigation is interesting.
Imal
But I wasn't being critical of the amorality. Quite the contrary. If businessmen spent their time responding to pressure groups and deciding what was moral they would have no time to do business.
Of course, some cross the line. Sell to the enemy. But even here the line is blurred. If arms manufacturers didn't sell their old weapons to someone where would they get the money to make new weapons?
R J Rushdoony, a valued mentor, wrote of the puritan "doctrine of sunk costs." Survivors of Nazi and Communist takeovers saw the writing on the wall, and beat feet to start anew somewhere else. They strolled away from home casually dressed, as if for a brief walk. Purchased a series of short-trip train tickets. And got themselves and their families out alive.
The folks who tried to preserve their wealth rarely made it -- the suitcases gave 'em away.
This was also the advice Jesus gave His hearers about the pending Roman seige of Jerusalem -- leave your stuff and get out while you can. As long as you are alive, with your skills and work ethic, you can rebuild.
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