What do End Time prophecies mean for Israel and Judaism?

Time.com ^

[RCW2001]

DAVID SILVERMAN/GETTY IMAGES

Strange Bedfellows: Evangelical Christians have many reasons for supporting Israel and its settlements in the West Bank

What do End Time prophecies mean for Israel and Judaism?

By NANCY GIBBS

Evangelical leaders have declared that support for Israel has moved to the very top of their agenda. Christian groups are spending millions on everything from armored school buses for Israeli children to halogen lights for the army's emergency-rescue service. There are e-mail chains, prayer ministries and grassroots efforts to get the word out that the U.S. must stand united with its ally in the war on terror.

So why are Jews so divided about this embrace?

On the one hand are those who argue that when there is a Methodist in the White House with Evangelical sympathies, it is smart politics to make friends with his friends—even if you disagree with them on every subject other than Israel. "Evangelicals have a unique role to play with this Administration and in the Republican Party that Jews can't," says Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, who runs an interfaith alliance. "Jews today see Israel's survival at stake, so they are more willing to put aside domestic concerns." In this view, Evangelical support reflects many factors: shared security interests, a desire to atone for past persecution of Jews, and deep, shared roots in the Book of Genesis. "Our primary motivation comes from the biblical verses that say he who blesses Israel will be blessed," says Doron Schneider of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem. "We see ourselves as part of the fulfillment of the prophecy, but we are not causing it to happen."

	"I'd be awfully cautious about this alliance if I were on the Israeli side." — HARVEY COX, professor of divinity at Harvard

And that is where the argument begins, the moment the word prophecy is mentioned. Evangelical leaders emphatically deny that End Times theology plays any role in their support of Israel. So the debate among Jews is whether to believe them, and whether it matters. "You're playing with fire there," says Harvey Cox, professor of divinity at Harvard. "I'd be awfully cautious about this alliance if I were on the Israeli side." The reason is that once you move into End Times theology, the interests of the two groups split apart. According to prophecy, the Jews must be in control of Israel for Jesus to return. But in the last battle, two-thirds of the Jews perish, and the rest either accept Jesus as the true Messiah or they must be damned, literally. "In my view, any theology that continues to deny the validity of Judaism and to fantasize about looking forward to the conversion or destruction of the Jews is one that should arouse a great deal of caution among Jews," argues Gershom Gorenberg, a leading Jewish expert.

Yet when a people feels isolated and under attack, it will take all the friends it can get, retorts Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "I don't think it's our business to get at the heart and soul and metaphysics of people as to why they come to support Israel. Some do it for a national-interest point of view, some because of moral issues, some because of theological issues. We don't set standards or conditions for support." That may be a luxury for a more peaceful age.

— Reported by Matthew Kalman/ Jerusalem and Amanda Bower/ New York

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

This may be of interest...

[Michael2001]

The liberals aren't liking the fact that Christians and Jews are starting to work together. The fact that the liberals keep writing articles like this is proof that they don't like what they are seeing.

[DallasMike]

We've seen several articles like this lately. My guess is that the liberals are desperate to divide the Christians and the Jews.

[LostTribe]

>My guess is that the liberals are desperate to divide the Christians and the Jews.

Yep, the trend is going the other way. They are headed back together again, after a loooooong separation. But not everyone is happy about it.

[Woahhs]

Who the hell takes a divinity professor from Harvard seriously, aside from agnostic (in the sense of utter ignorance) reporters? Certainly not anyone who takes the Bible or the Church seriously. This guy can't even inform about eschatology without political spin...

[Aliska]

Thank you for the interesting post. I wish catholics and orthodox took more interest in end-time prophecy, if only for clarification.

Catholics emphasize that we don't know the time (agreed), but then they seem to dismiss the whole subject. The pope says, "Be Not Afraid". If I were a Jew I would be very afraid. As it is, I am somewhat afraid at the escalation of horror in the world. Who wouldn't be? A catholic prophecy (may not be approved by the church) reads that the antichrist will come from a Hebrew false virgin and someone (can't remember details).

The evangelicals may be off on some of their interpretations, but it heartens me that they are so sympathetic to the Jews, and not only because of prophecy as pointed out in the article.

As to the divinity professor from Harvard, I don't think he needs to worry. Jews will be careful of marriages of convenience.

On the radio there was a paid commercial for a .org website which was about this subject (Christians and Jews working together). Wish I could remember the url. I searched on Google, but nothing sounded like the one I heard. If anyone knows, please post so I can bookmark it.

[parsifal]

"What do End Time prophecies mean for Israel and Judaism?"

Nothing. parsy.

[Salvation]

Here is the Book of Revelation for reference and footnotes

[Sloopy]

The reason many Christians are pro-Israel is because they believe that America has been blessed because of its support of Israel.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12:3

[LostTribe]

>The reason many Christians are pro-Israel is because they believe that America has been blessed because of its support of Israel...

Yep, one of these days they will figure out that Genesis 12 was addressed to Abram (later Abraham), but Abraham was neither an Israelite nor a Jew:

Genesis 12:2-3 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great,  and you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

There were no Jews at the time of Abraham, There were not even any Israelites.  There would not be any Jews for another ~1,500 years.

[Sloopy]

The Patriarchs and the Origins of Judaism
Level: Basic

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism. They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people. Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews, because the terms "Jew" and "Judaism" were not used generally to refer to this nation until hundreds of years after their time; nevertheless, for convenience I will use these terms.

The history below is derived from written Torah, Talmud, Midrash and other sources. Modern scholars question the existence of the Patriarchs and the historical accuracy of this information; however, it is worth noting that scholars also questioned the existence of Babylonia... until archaeologists found it.

Abraham
According to Jewish tradition, Abraham was born under the name Abram in the city of Ur in Babylonia in the year 1948 from Creation (circa 1800 BCE). He was the son of Terach, an idol merchant, but from his early childhood, he questioned the faith of his father and sought the truth. He came to believe that the entire universe was the work of a single Creator, and he began to teach this belief to others.

Abram tried to convince his father, Terach, of the folly of idol worship. One day, when Abram was left alone to mind the store, he took a hammer and smashed all of the idols except the largest one. He placed the hammer in the hand of the largest idol. When his father returned and asked what happened, Abram said, "The idols got into a fight, and the big one smashed all the other ones." His father said, "Don't be ridiculous. These idols have no life or power. They can't do anything." Abram replied, "Then why do you worship them?"

Eventually, the one true Creator that Abram had worshipped called to him, and made him an offer: if Abram would leave his home and his family, then G-d would make him a great nation and bless him. Abram accepted this offer, and the b'rit (covenant) between G-d and the Jewish people was established. (Gen. 12).

The idea of b'rit is fundamental to traditional Judaism: we have a covenant, a contract, with G-d, which involves rights and obligations on both sides. We have certain obligations to G-d, and G-d has certain obligations to us. The terms of this b'rit became more explicit over time, until the time of the Giving of the Torah (see below). Abram was subjected to ten tests of faith to prove his worthiness for this covenant. Leaving his home is one of these trials.

Abram, raised as a city-dweller, adopted a nomadic lifestyle, traveling through what is now the land of Israel for many years. G-d promised this land to Abram's descendants. Abram is referred to as a Hebrew (Ivri), possibly because he was descended from Eber or possibly because he came from the "other side" (eber) of the Euphrates River.

But Abram was concerned, because he had no children and he was growing old. Abram's beloved wife, Sarai, knew that she was past child-bearing years, so she offered her maidservant, Hagar, as a wife to Abram. This was a common practice in the region at the time. According to tradition, Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh, given to Abram during his travels in Egypt. She bore Abram a son, Ishmael, who, according to both Muslim and Jewish tradition, is the ancestor of the Arabs. (Gen 16)

When Abram was 100 and Sarai 90, G-d promised Abram a son by Sarai. G-d changed Abram's name to Abraham (father of many), and Sarai's to Sarah (from "my princess" to "princess"). Sarah bore Abraham a son, Isaac (in Hebrew, Yitzchak), a name derived from the word "laughter," expressing Abraham's joy at having a son in his old age. (Gen 17-18). Isaac was the ancestor of the Jewish people. Thus, the conflict between Arabs and Jews can be seen as a form of sibling rivalry!

[TheCPA]

Yes, and the House of Israel and the House of Judah were two separate kingdoms after King Solomon.

[LostTribe]

>Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism.

Yes, they are ancestors of Jews, and of a whole lot of other people as well.  There is nothing exlusive here.

>They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people.

Their descendents include the Israelites, of which only a tiny percentage were called Jews, about 1,500 years later.

>Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews,

When the phrase "technically" is used in this demeaning manner it means "Yes you are correct, but I don't want to admit it."  Technical, schmechlical, it IS incorrect to refer to the Patriarchs as Jews for they never were.  

>According to Jewish tradition,

Tradition isn't worth a bucket of warm spit. As my FR Home Page Profile says, "this is about HISTORY, both Archeological and Biblical."

>Abram accepted this offer, and the b'rit (covenant) between G-d and the Jewish people was established. (Gen. 12).

That is of course nonsense.  To save bandwith please see my prior post #11.

>The idea of b'rit is fundamental to traditional Judaism:

Tradition isn't worth a bucket of warm spit. As my FR Home Page says, this is about history, both Biblical and otherwise.

>we have a covenant, a contract, with G-d,

That covenent is with ALL the ISRAELITES, of which Jews are only a tiny fraction.  There is nothing exclusive here.

>G-d promised this land to Abram's descendants.

That's right.  But which descendents?  Think carefully before answering.

> Isaac was the ancestor of the Jewish people.

Isaac was the ancestor of lots of people, inclduding ALL of the Israelites, of which Jews are just a tiny fraction.  There is no exclusivity here.

Now that I've examined and addressed each of your few significant points, please return the courtesy and Click on my FR Profile and read the 3MINUTE  HISTORY (not posted here to save bandwidth).  Then make meaningful and intellectually sound comments on each the points in each of the 7 paragraphs with which you take issue.  (This is at the Graduate Level.)

Thank You.

[Steve Eisenberg]

"You're playing with fire there," says Harvey Cox, professor of divinity at Harvard. "I'd be awfully cautious about this alliance if I were on the Israeli side."

But as a matter of fact, Harvey Cox is NOT on the Israeli side. For example, he joined with the Berrigans and Muslim clerics in signing a 1999 "Palestinian/lsraeli Human Rights Petition" (http://www.searchforjustice.org/petition_intro.html) pushing moral equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians while advocating a U.S. tilt towards Arafat and company.

I can't imagine why Jews would be other than positive about Christian support for Israel. My only dissapointment about Christian belief and the end of days, with regard to Israel, is the few groups (Jehovah's Witnesses) who teach that Israel's existence prevents the coming of the end of days. The idea that just because people believe in the end of days they lack goodwill is intolerant and ridiculous.

[LostTribe]

>Yes, and the House of Israel and the House of Judah were two separate kingdoms after King Solomon.

Correct. To see what became of each of those two separate Kingdoms, please click on my Profile and read the 3-MINUTE HISTORY.

[crystalk]

Daniel 12: When the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all of these things shall be fulfilled.

More important than any of these world-ending, gloom and doom prophecies the Harvard guy is trying to blow smoke about, are the hopeful and helpful prophecies, such as that above, and also...

The one about the stick of Ephraim and the stick of Judah becoming one in the hands of God, to achieve His ends in the world.

Those prophecies Cox speaks of may or may not ever come to pass, and if they do, it will be by an act of God, who will not ask permission from either leftist Christians, nor leftist Jews, nor conservatives either...

Why should that keep Jews and Christians from working together to make the world better, just in case God does NOT soon intervene to end this world? What if He wants a thousand years of Jewish-Christian co-operation to come first?

[Sloopy]

So noted, and thank you for your thoughtful and thorough response.

Best wishes.

[foreverfree]

bump

[berned]

The evangelicals may be off on some of their interpretations

Yeah, we're not biblically rock-solid like the...

"It's-a-mortal-sin-to-eat-meat-on-Friday"

and

"There-is-a-place-between-heaven-and-Hell-called- Purgatory-which-Jesus-never-mentions-cause-it-musta-just- slipped-his-mind"...Catholics.