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To: Aric2000; *Christian_list; logos; BibChr; FreedomFriend; Sangamon Kid; Springman; SamAdams76; ...
Sorry, wrong answer with me, you may believe it, but I do not. I am not a Christian, so I do not believe in your socalled moralist values of marriage etc.

I think that cohabitation and sex before marriage is necessary to make sure that you are indeed compatible and will be happy together before you take the step of getting married to have children. Marriage is for the financial and emotional security of children, if you are NOT going to have children, then marriage is not necessary.

Sounds like it's time to let one of those antediluvian Christian types weigh in on the subject. No, it's not yours truly (although I'd qualify); it's Chuck Colson, who with Nancy Pearcey authored the book How Now Shall We Live?

Colson makes two points that are germane to this particular thread:

(1) [Judeo-Christian] Morality, says Colson, is not merely an arbitrary constraint on individual choice but a protection against social disintegration. Even a confirmed secularist like Guenter Levy, who started out to write a book defending secularism, wound up arguing (in Why America Needs Religion) that many empirical studies are showing that belief in God (and adherence to scriptural principles, not mere profession of them) makes people happier and more fulfilled. Colson's book cites data from many of the medical studies that "are confirming that shose who attend church regularly and act consistently with their faith are better off, both physically and mentally."

(2) When it comes to marriage, divorce, cohabitation and the like, Colson says the Christian church has often been part of the problem: "In fact, three-quarters of all weddings are blessed in a church or synagogue, which means churches are implicated in the nation's staggering divorce rate."

Colson (with Mike McManus of MarriageSavers.org) discusses five areas in which churches need to be proactive [and predictably, they'll be accused of Victorian prudery and benighted naivete when and if they are]:

1. Smart Dating. Colson writes, ". . .the church must begin by helping dating couples, and the first message they need to hear is that if you want a good marriage, avoid premarital sexual relations. The National Survey of Family Growth found that women who were not virgins when they got married have a 71 percent higher divorce rate."

2. Trial is Error. Colson writes, "About 90 percent of the couples who live together say they want to get married, but the National Survey of Families and Households found that almost half break up before signing a marriage license. Those who do marry are 50 percent more likely to divorce [than those who didn't live together before marriage]."

3. Engaging Couples.Colson recommends that churches get on board with programs like PREPARE (Premarital Personal and Relationship Evaluation), which helps couples identify their strengths and weaknesses so they can iron out major conflicts before marriage. "Another effective program is Engaged Encounter, an intensive weekend program that teaches couples how to relate more effectively." Mrs. Rhema and I -- married 26 years this June -- went to an Engaged Encounter.

4. Wedding Shock. Colson says that many divorces trace back to habits established in early years, after the romantic attachment wears off. Citing the church tradition (in Deuteronomy 24) of exempting a newly married man from military and other duties for a year as precedent that it's biblical for churches to protect and nurture young couples, Colson mentions programs like ENRICH, which helps fledgling couples inventory their strengths and weaknesses, identifying key problem areas.

5. Divorce Insurance. Colson mentions a number of programs:
*Marriage Encounter, an intensive weekend retreat with a 90 percent success rate in strengthening marriages
*Retrouvaille, for seriously troubled marriages, which involves personal counseling by couples who themselves have worked through serious marriage problems. "Of the couples who have attended Retrouvaille, nearly half were already separated or divorced, yet 80 percent have reunited and stayed together."
*Marriage Savers, whose Community Marriage Policies program (in which many community churches agree together to require couples to undergo marriage preparation, take a premarital inventory, and meet with a mentor couple) has seen divorce rates plummet by 30 and 40 percent in the communities that have tried it. "By the end of 1998, a hundred cities had adopted Community Marriage Policies, and nine have been in place long enough to produce a measurable drop in the local divorce rate."

Colson summarizes: "Back in the 1970s, books touted divorce as liberation . . . But the moral tides are turning, and people are showing a growing concern for the social cost of family breakdown, reflected in titles such as The Case against Divorce (Diane Medved), Divorce Busting: A Revolutionary and Rapid Program for Staying Together (Michele Weiner-Davis) . . .There are even efforts under way to eliminate no-fault divorce, which gives all the legal power to those who walk away from their family commitments. . ."

(I'll revisit the thread later today or early tomorrow to check in on the interesting and impassioned disputations to Colson's arguments.)

106 posted on 07/18/2002 9:01:05 AM PDT by rhema
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To: rhema
Like I said before, marriage is for the security of children, nothing more. If a couple wishes to live together without getting married, because they are NOT having children, more power to them.

I am an example of cohabitation and premarital sex that has turned into a VERY strong marriage and family unit. I am NOT typical, and not claiming to be, but the fact is, it is a choice that people make, and I believe that it works.
107 posted on 07/18/2002 9:38:46 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: rhema
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, obviously we are never going to agree on this issue, so I can't see any reason to beat a dead horse and discuss this issue any further except that if you seek seek government redress through legislation to enforce your beliefs. Other than having the panty sniffing police or the holy sexual inquisition break down my bedroom door with a warrant to search for sexual deviancy, I really could care less.
111 posted on 07/18/2002 2:07:36 PM PDT by TightSqueeze
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To: rhema
The National Survey of Family Growth found that women who were not virgins when they got married have a 71 percent higher divorce rate."

What % of women were virgins until their wedding day?

115 posted on 07/18/2002 3:58:21 PM PDT by Koblenz
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