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To: Physicist
First of all, sorry to use such a disgusting example, but it gets the attention.

Anyway, if you are an atheistic materialist, you believe that all things precede in cause-and-effect manner from the Big Bang. Thus, how can what a rapist, or a murderer, or a child molester do be described as "evil"? Their actions were pre-determined as much as a domino falling is predetermined by all the dominoes behind it. This is why, as the article states, you see leftists saying that "society is responsible" when crimes are committed. They don't believe that we have free will.

So, how could an child molester's actions be morally wrong if he's doing nothing more than what he's pre-determined to do? That's the point.

Cheers, here's to friendly debate.

16 posted on 07/29/2002 9:42:18 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
Anyway, if you are an atheistic materialist, you believe that all things precede in cause-and-effect manner from the Big Bang. Thus, how can what a rapist, or a murderer, or a child molester do be described as "evil"? Their actions were pre-determined as much as a domino falling is predetermined by all the dominoes behind it.

First of all, it's an incontrovertible fact that not effect in the universe is caused. Fate has been ruled out by experiment, in consonance with the predictions of quantum mechanics.

Second, even if it were true that Laplace's hypothetical omniscient genius could predict any future event, that wouldn't mean that people aren't responsible for their actions. The story is often told of the philosopher Zeno, who taught that every event of the world is preordained. One time he caught his slave stealing from him, and proceeded to beat him. His wily slave told him, "but master, I was fated to steal from you!" Zeno replied, "and I to beat you."

Finally, I don't agree that in a completely deterministic universe, free will doesn't exist. I submit that if our brains worked in a completely deterministic manner, it could just as easily "feel the same" to us as it does now. I don't want to retype the argument I made on this thread two years ago, but if you'll read through it, you'll see where I'm coming from.

17 posted on 07/29/2002 10:24:13 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: HumanaeVitae
OTOH, if you're a Christian, you believe there is an omnipotent, omniscient God who established the initial conditions of the universe with full knowledge of everything that would happen--so in what sense can anyone be considered responsible for his actions?
75 posted on 07/29/2002 8:32:52 PM PDT by jejones
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