Tonkin attack may not have occurred - LBJ tapes cast doubt on 1964 incident that led to Vietnam War

San Antonio Express-News via The Dallas Morning News ^ | August 4, 2002 | San Antonio Express-News Staff

[MeekOneGOP]

Tonkin attack may not have occurred

LBJ tapes cast doubt on 1964 incident that led to Vietnam War

08/04/2002

San Antonio Express-News

Thirty-eight years ago Sunday, evening network television was interrupted so President Lyndon B. Johnson could tell the nation that U.S. warships in the Gulf of Tonkin had been attacked by North Vietnamese boats.

In response to what he described as "open aggression on the open seas," Johnson ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam.

The airstrikes opened the door to a war that would kill 1 million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans and divide the nation.

Over the years, debate has swirled around whether American ships were really attacked that night, or whether, as some skeptics suggest, the Johnson administration staged or provoked an event to get congressional authority to act against North Vietnam.

Recently released tapes of White House phone conversations indicate the attack probably never happened.

The tapes, released by Johnson's presidential library at the University of Texas at Austin, include 51 phone conversations from Aug. 4 and 5, 1964, when the incident occurred.

Two days earlier, North Vietnamese forces in Russian-made "swatow" gunboats had reportedly attacked the USS Maddox, a destroyer conducting reconnaissance in the gulf.

But from the get-go, many have doubted anything really happened to the Maddox and a sister ship, the USS C. Turner Joy, on Aug. 4.

Even LBJ seemed skeptical, saying in 1965: "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there."

The tapes indicate that jittery sailors in a tense area at least thought they were under attack.

"Under attack by three PT boats. Torpedoes in the water. Engaging the enemy with my main battery," the Maddox radioed.

Many of the taped conversations from that night are between Defense Secretary Robert McNamara who was trying to verify that something actually happened so he could brief Johnson for his televised bulletin and Adm. U.S. Grant "Oley" Sharp, commander of the Pacific Fleet.

"If it's open season on these boys, which I think it is, we'll take if from there," Adm. Sharp said about noon on Aug. 4.

Later, in an afternoon conversation with Air Force Lt. Gen. David Burchinal of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Sharp was elusive, saying, "many of the reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful."

He blamed the reports on "overeager sonarmen" and "freak weather effects on radar."

Shortly after 11 p.m., the counterstrike was under way.

But, James Stockdale a Navy pilot who responded to the "attacks" and later became a prisoner of war said it was hogwash.

"I had the best seat in the house to watch that event, and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets there were no PT boats there. There was nothing but black water and American firepower," Mr. Stockdale wrote in his 1984 book, In Love and War. He went on to become Ross Perot's running mate in the 1992 presidential campaign.

Congress nonetheless responded to Johnson's call to arms, giving him a veritable blank check to make war in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution approved on Aug. 7, 1964.

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Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews/stories/080402tonkin.d5bd7.html

[MeekOneGOP]

Lyndon Baines Johnson

1908- 1973

American Politician

[KantianBurke]

Just another lie from the mac daddy of all liars and scumbag Demorat politicans.

[tenderstone jr.]

It's interesting that the three most liberal presidents of the last century, who all wanted to increase the size and power of the federal government, are also accused of staging or provoking attacks to lead the U.S. into large wars.

[norraad]

Well, {Jack Benny}, I always found it a stretch that a few hopped up commies in a paper boat would come tearing across the open sea to chase a destroyer.

[perez24]

I can already hear Doris Kearns Goodwin explaining on Imus how "Johnson didn't really mean 'attacked' when he said 'attacked'"

I'm sure the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the rest of the military-industrial complex put him up to it.

Carl Bernstein will say that lying to the country in order to launch a way will pale in comparison to Watergate.

[decimon]

Where do I apply to get back my three years of enlistment?

[steve50]

Of course anybody who questioned it at the time were pro commie tin foil hatters.

[backhoe]

FWIW, follow the replies to get to the heart of the matter- our vets led the way:

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident, Early provocation, or early example of "spin..."

Especially see harpseal's reply #21...

[liberallarry]

An interesting post. Probably true. I remember the politics of the time. We were at the height of the cold war and the domino theory ruled. We had "lost" Eastern Europe in '45, China in '49 and Cuba in '61 - and there had been close calls in France, Italy, Greece and parts of Latin America. In '54 Ho Chi Minh succeeded in forcing the French to flee. Dulles wanted to use atomic weapons to prevent their victory but Eisenhower vetoed that. So a compromise of sorts was reached. We installed a Catholic collaborator and were given two years to make our case - then Viet Nam-wide elections would decide the issue. Two years later Diem refused to hold them but he was not popular and his hold on power gradually weakened. Both Kennedy and Johnson feared the consequences if he were allowed to fall. Hence; Tonkin Bay.

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

Re: your #9. Good short summary. Just remember the We is really democraps in the Whitehouse.

Johnson needed a reason to take over the war and expand the American presence. The Gulf of Tonkin "incident" gave him the excuse. Just didn't didn't have the necessary catch phase. He spent the rest of his presidency trying to negotiate with Uncle Ho.

[Cagey]

fyi bump

[Tom Bombadil]

The tapes indicate that jittery sailors in a tense area at least thought they were under attack.

However it started, the war was run from the top without regard for the brave men fighting it. A trust was broken between the people shooting the guns and the leaders directing them. The peace talks in Paris were used by totalitarian communists to turn gutless American politicians into patsies who they played like an orchestra. And American soldiers were dying the whole time.

Incrementalism does not work in war. Robert McNamara has not apologized to the American people for his arrogance in having a hand in starting something he wasn't truly committed to finishing.

[liberallarry]

We is really democraps in the Whitehouse.

No. The Republicans were even more fearful of a loss to the Communists - same as today. Remember that in '64 the world looked to us much as it does to the Israelis of today; we were a few fighting to preserve a way of life in a sea of barbarians and tyrants.

[John H K]

Umm, this is supposed to be some sort of new revelation?

It's been pretty much known for years that the Aug. 2 attacks WERE real, and that on Aug. 4th we were shooting at pretty much nothing.

Not a deliberate conspiracy or anything, though.

[gunnedah]

Which way is it that ad goes: He Was A Democrat!

[Buffalo Head]

"freak weather effects on radar."

Must have been UFO's.

[RichardW]

This is news? I thought it had long been assumed that the Tonkin thing was phony.

[liberallarry]

See post #8.

[willyone]

It was not uncommon due to weather conditions in the Gulf to be able to paint surface targets over a hundred miles away with radar while being unable to detect air targets. The radars of the time especially the SPS-39 and 30 were great at painting pictures of the weather in the region. Before the days of MTI and processed video.

[norton]

You left out Diem's unseemly demise and the fact that US opinion and some US politicians had supported all of those losses you cite.

In fact, I don't remember anyone who believed the Tonkin Gulf Incident at the time, during their time in country, or any time afterward.

Those were days when people felt perfectly justified in claiming that moon walks were staged at Universal studios and that Lee Harvey Oswald was on LBJ's payroll.

Vietnam was going to happen; Kennedy wouldn't let it get by without showing he was a rough tough real-man kind of president. (The Bay of Pigs just might have influenced his thinking on that one...)

Remember that he was the guy who made Special Forces public after at least six years on the ground without 'benefit' of publicity.

LBJ's problem was that he understood toe-to-toe conventional war and doubted that special operations (counter insurgency at the time) could get the job done. Neither he nor JFK appreciated that if counter insurgency had failed under the old groundrules, we could have just walked away.

Johnson literally did "step in it".

Just my opinion.