Sex in the City of God - A couple make the case for contraception-free marriage.

NRO ^ | August 9, 2002 | Kathryn Jean Lopez

[Askel5]

I'm sure therapy would do wonders for my ability to perceive anal sex as a source of amusement in public or suitable substitute for real sex in private.

You'll forgive me, I hope, for failing to get with the Program.

[SarahW]

I couldn't disagree more wtih this, its unGodly and incredibly selfish.

It's the same misconstrued dogmatism that convinced Andrea and Russel Yates to produce as many children as God would allow, even though pregnancy triggered psychosis in Andrea.

God gave us the mind and the tools to make intelligent choices. We are obliged to discern what is best for ourselves and our families. Having eight or twelve or twenty children may be fine for some families, but God does not, I repeat, does not "open and close wombs" and do all the deciding for us. We are obligated to take charge if we can. If we rely on God to do what we should do for ourselves, he is displeased, and he will not save us from our mistakes in this world.

[Romulus]

Exactly whether rythmn or pill or foam or scapel the end aim is the same sex without conception

You are overlooking the point that NFP isn't about what a couple does; it's about what they don't do.

What's the alternative? Would you have the Church mandate marital relations happening only during fertile periods? Or every night? Would you have the Church forbid sex during infertile periods?

Don't you see that in refraining from such controlling measures, it's the Church that introduces authentic freedom into the marital embrace, rather than a spurious license that reduces each partner to the status of object and a slave to appetite?

Is it your complaint against the Church that she is authoritarian, or that she is not authoritarian enough? Could it be that the Church is the true liberal, and the contraceptors are the true dupes and thralls? You need to clear your mind of cant; you need to re-think what you think you know.

[Romulus]

#43 is for y'all too.

[Jefferson Adams]

Oh, PFFFFT!

Like the current pope has written extensively, the Torodes believe that contraception is not consistent with a "culture of life." But they believe that most pro-lifers haven't even thought through it.

Well, THIS pro-life Charismatic protestant has thought about it.

Our culture tells us that sex is really about pleasure, not spousal unity and procreation.

Sex is about pleasure and unity between a man and wife. And *occasionally* procreation. If it was as fully about procreation as it is about pleasure and unity, women would come into heat like other animals do. The Designer of both humans and other animals was quite capable of making it happen that way. Instead, He gave humans the ability to enjoy sex WITHOUT it resulting it pregnancy at least most of the time. That suggests that, since "rhythm" contraception is certainly viable and OK, then other forms - not including killing a living, growing child within its mother's womb - are acceptable as well.

[Askel5]

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Abstinence by its very nature is an act of Self-Governance that is critical to the human psyche and evidences absolutely the uniquely human ability to foresee consequences and govern one's passions.

That's a good example of philosophy.

Something that sounds OK on paper, but has little bearing on the real world.

---

Oh for Pete's sake ... are you blind? Look around you and see it in action!

All of these "rights" gifts of the State emblazoned with "Choice" and "Free Speech" wrapping paper are the very tools by which we're dumbed down to stupid animals suitable for subjugation and ready control.

Only the man who retains in action and in thought the ability to govern himself and discipline his passions enjoys the detachment and absolute sovereignty of will that makes him impervious (save by deadly force) to the State's coercion and force.

If you wish examples, I'm happy to provide some.

[Campion]

What's "unGodly and incredibly selfish"?

It's certainly incredibly selfish for one spouse to coerce or otherwise encourage the other to have more children than he or she can handle. I don't hear anyone advocating that.

Having a lot of kids is not "incredibly selfish" if you can take care of them. In fact, it's the opposite of selfish, as any parent who's been there can tell you. But it's not for everybody.

But the topic of this article is using NFP. How can it possibly be "unGodly and incredibly selfish" for a married couple to abstain from sex when they've mutually agreed they don't want to conceive? Incidentally, Paul mentions this "unGodly and incredibly selfish" action with approval in 1 Corinthians.

[Jefferson Adams]

You need therapy.

One thing!!! You said one thing!!! Nanny nanny, everybody - SHE SAID ONE THING!!!!!!!

[Campion]

If it was as fully about procreation as it is about pleasure and unity, women would come into heat like other animals do.

Have you ever thought about the reason why fornication is wrong? (It has nothing to do with either pleasure or unity.)

[Campion]

Only the man who retains in action and in thought the ability to govern himself and discipline his passions enjoys the detachment and absolute sovereignty of will that makes him impervious (save by deadly force) to the State's coercion and force.

This was something that the Founding Fathers knew in their marrow, and if we're ever to guide this nation back to something like what they intended, we'd better start to rediscover it.

[Belial]

Only the man who retains in action and in thought the ability to govern himself and discipline his passions enjoys the detachment and absolute sovereignty of will that makes him impervious (save by deadly force) to the State's coercion and force.

I'm sure that's true (whatever it is you're saying).

But it's pretty clear that the majority of theories about sexual morality through the ages have amounted to little more than mental masturbation in practice.

And what sane person would take sex advice from a class that makes a career of public chastity?

[Campion]

Lying doesn't become you, OPH.

[Jefferson Adams]

Have you ever thought about the reason why fornication is wrong? (It has nothing to do with either pleasure or unity.)

LOL - I'm way past that, friend.

[SarahW]

"It's certainly incredibly selfish for one spouse to coerce or otherwise encourage the other to have more children than he or she can handle. I don't hear anyone advocating that."

In the Yates situation, I believe they *both* believed that she should bear as many children as God would give her (expecting Him to automatically make her stop having children if it were bad for her and/or the other members of the family.)

Its possible for the selfishness to be mutual.

I've seen and read these "quiverfull" types go on and on about God deciding and God opening and closing wombs. Many give up on the NFP too, because God should do all the work of protecting them from themselves. That's just wrong.
They make themselves sick having baby after baby after baby, and the families struggle to feed and clothe their children, let alone provide for their higher education or their future financial security.

There is NOTHING wrong with using plain old birth control in marriage. We should properly raise the children we have.
We should recognize our limitations and accept that God's plan limits some of us for the duration of our lives.


That said, I have nothing against huge families per se, and certainly nothing against mutual abstinence, though it is unecessary. God gave made understanding, and one of the ways we use it is to have fewer children in total but more that survive.

[Gophack]

But this is not done. Granted, the couple may strive to avoid having sex during fertile periods but -- if their conjugal relations are free of contraceptive implements or abortifacient chemicals -- there is always the potential for life which will be welcomed by the couple who recognize conception as a matter of God's will making their co-creative ability fruitful.

VERY well said!

[amused]

Makes a good case for anal sex . . .

Now there's a phrase I never thought I would see on FR.