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To: miniaturegovernment
Thanks for the response. I suspect, though that there are iniatives which could combine small government with more morality: covenant marriage, charter schools or home schooling, tracking down dead-beat dads. Perhaps there are others.

Of equal importance are the ways in which state power has encouraged a breakdown in families and morality. So much of how we live now is a function of programs like welfare and social security. I'm not sure that we can or ought to go back to what existed before, but here too, a wise child will see that what we have now isn't entirely a product of capitalism or freedom.

The idea of a restoration is one that's had great appeal for a long time. It's said Britain was able to go from the irreligious, debauched world of the 18th century to the respectable, moralizing evangelical Victorian atmosphere of the mid-19th century. If I'm not mistaken, during the same years Americans went from the most alcoholic people in the world to the biggest teatotaler in the Western world.

Of course these are generalizations and there are plenty of glaring exceptions, but this model entices some conservatives and conservative libertarians now as it entranced all parties a century ago. The difference is that in those days, it was presumed that more state action, more social workers, more settlement houses and more support payments would make people more moral. Today the presumption is that less state action will achieve the same result. There's reason to be sceptical in both cases, but the example still has an appeal to intellectuals and policy makers.

I think you're right that conservatives like certain freedoms more than others. Who wouldn't find the right to free speech or the free market preferable to the right to make snuff films? And it's true across the political spectrum. Liberals clearly value the right to abortion above the economic freedoms. And libertarians are the most intriguing case. The demand for less government conflicts with legally established "rights" such as freedom from racial discrimination. The libertarian claim to be the party of freedom would be sharply disputed by those who have more reliance or faith in "rights" or "freedoms" created by statute. Given that all rights rest on the means of enforcement, which are generally in the hands of the government, there is something to be said for argument.

I think you tend to associate social conservatism with incursions into individual freedoms. I come at this more from the point of view of a Reagan voter who simply wanted more local control and fewer federal interventionist actions on behalf of actions or policies that people regarded as immoral. And my take is that those socially conservative Reagan voters were more truly "conservative" than their libertarian or free marketeering colleagues. For better or for worse, it was the free marketeers who changed the world in new and unforseen ways. It's also the case that "social conservative" is an ambiguous term. I don't mean the activists of the Moral Majority, but ordinary people, the traditionalist "Reagan Democrats," for want of a better term, who weren't looking for a restoration, but just to hold the line against pernicious trends. If that socially conservative ground has been lost, the country is in real trouble.

I suppose that "Restoration" is an impossible dream and paleoconservatism is a pipe dream, but I still think that small town Americans who maintain older social values are not only the salt of the earth, but also the mainstream of American conservatism. Maybe others will come around to their views. Or maybe their position will be increasingly untenable, but it won't necessarily be because they represent more statism. More likely it would be because more people don't want to put up with restrictions which may be private or non-governmental as well as state-imposed.

214 posted on 08/13/2002 12:32:15 PM PDT by x
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To: x
Creation/God...Christianity---secular-govt.-humanism/SCIENCE---CIVILIZATION!

Originally the word liberal meant social conservatives(no govt religion--none) who advocated growth and progress---mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality... UNDER GOD---the nature of GOD/man/govt. does not change. These were the Classical liberals...founding fathers-PRINCIPLES---stable/SANE scientific reality/society---industrial progress...moral/social character-values(private/personal) GROWTH(LIMITED non pc-intrusive govt)!

Evolution...Atheism-dehumanism---TYRANNY...

Then came the SPLIT SCHIZOPHRENIA/America---

215 posted on 08/13/2002 1:15:58 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: x
How about this concept: Social conservatism is the desire of communities or small entities to be left alone. Libertarianism wants the individual in that community to have unilateral power to negate the power of the community to organize its social institutions in ways they see fit (to be left alone). They have no problem with using the power of the larger national government to do that. Their ideology is destructive of community values and freedom. They never were, nor could they ever be, conservatives. The best of them are "classical liberals" and the worst are anarchists and hedonists. That is how I see it.

Regards.

216 posted on 08/13/2002 4:47:06 PM PDT by The Irishman
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