Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars

AP Online ^ | 8-21-02 | ROXANA M. POPESCU

[mjp]

Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars

ROME (August 21, 2002 5:23 p.m. EDT) - Experts on the Shroud of Turin said Wednesday they felt frustrated and betrayed to learn a Swiss textile expert had obtained Vatican approval to test the sacred cloth without involvement from the international scientific community. The shroud is a strip of linen believers say was used to wrap the body of Jesus. Kept in the Cathedral of Turin, it is rarely displayed to the public.

Earlier this month, the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero said a well-known Swiss textile expert, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, had begun tests on the cloth and, as part of the research, cut out 30 patches woven into it in the 16th century.

Flury-Lemberg confirmed then that she had received Vatican approval to perform the tests. But she has refused to say exactly what her work has entailed.

Some experts worry that in the absence of any oversight, she may have damaged the cloth. In the past, tests on the cloth have involved a large committee of international scientists.

"This one was limited strictly to certain favorites in Turin, and Flury-Lemberg was one," said the Rev. Albert Dreisbach, an Episcopalian minister who has been studying the shroud since 1977.

Flury-Lemberg said Wednesday she would release photographs of her research next month.

"There are so many wrong things in the press," she said by telephone from Bern, Switzerland. "Everyone's speculating. I don't want to give any news."

Cardinal Severino Poletto, the archbishop of Turin and the shroud's custodian, said in an interview with the Italian Catholic newspaper L'Avvenire that the Vatican approved the tests.

He would not discuss Flury-Lemberg's procedures except to say her work was carried out in accordance with two Vatican conditions: that there be unanimous consent of the members of the Conservation Commission for the Shroud, a small group of experts overseeing the cloth, and that the cultural authorities of the Italian government be informed.

Members of the commission could not be reached Wednesday.

Ilona Farkas, who has been following shroud research since 1976 but is not a commission member, said scientists are upset.

"It's scandalous," Farkas said from Rome. "There will be tons of protests arriving at the Vatican from scientists."

Paul Maloney, general projects director for the Association of Scientists and Scholars International for the Shroud of Turin, located in Pennsylvania, said the lack of information has "many of us around the world very frustrated, because we don't know how to assess what they have done."

Maloney, who is also not a member of the smaller commission, said experts fear "historically important information may be gone forever."

The cardinal said the research involved removing impurities and residue from the cloth, which is 13 feet long and three feet wide.

"The interventions have been carried out reservedly not out of a great desire for secrecy, but to guarantee the necessary calm for those who had to work, beside obvious reasons for safety," Poletto told L'Avennire.

[seeker41]

Read the Christ Clone Trilogy, they are excellent books. The first book "In His Image" is all about the shroud and is factual based upon actual research. A hint-the shroud produces a clone of Jesus and the books are about end times based on revelations. These books are better then the "Left Behind" series, I felt they were poorly written.

[Fred Mertz]

What's this all about?

[seeker41]

Hers' a little about the author of the books

James BeauSeigneur, a former intelligence analyst for the National Security Agency and newspaper publisher, taught political science at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, and in 1980 was the Republican nominee for U.S. Congress running against Al Gore. His published works include manuals on strategic defense and military avionics; newspaper articles; speeches for U.S. Congressional and Senatorial candidates; and lyrics for several published songs written with Timothy J. Ripley and Mark Ford.

[RCW2001]

the shroud produces a clone of Jesus

THATS...'wicked'!

[martian_22]

***What's this all about?***

The international interests suspect they may be left out of a possible DNA profile or worse. I doubt the Vatican would even consider cloning....if such a thing could possibly be done.

The ability to apply new technology moves faster than we realise. I hope it doesn't move as fast as my imagination....

[seeker41]

It isn't what you think, I am a Christian and would not read something that blasphemed Christ. Remember, for every good thing Jesus does there is a evil counter-fitter. This book was recommended to me by other Christians who had read the "Left Behind" series as well. The plot is great and stays on scripture, the author is Christian and has even included footnotes with both biblical and factual references.

[AncientAirs]

See

http://www.shroud.com/

for details.

[jackd]

It's great to learn new information concerning the shroud. I was of the opinion that the shroud had been examined by two photographers and two scientists one from the University of Milan and one from Cal Poly. Their conclusion was that the shroud was a clever imaging that was common in the 13th cwntury. This imaging had survived in other forms (different cloth, etc.), but society at the time viewed it as "trash" and generally treated it as such. Thus only fragments of others remain. The Shroud at Turin was of a crusader and was encased in a sarcophagus thus preserving it from the elements.

Please advise.

[Nebullis]

Darn Dating!

It sounds like Rome has found someone who will tell them what they want to hear.

[HumanaeVitae]

This would be plausible...if the Shroud wasn't a photonegative. Please explain how 13th Century charlatans came up with a photonegative on a piece of pigment-free cloth and I'll believe the non-"debunking" that was done in the '80s.

[HumanaeVitae]

Heh. One word. "UCAI".

[Consort]

About the same time that the shroud was discovered, Saint Becky of Turin reported the theft of her beach towel.

[Nebullis]

Tiberiou Caisaros

What's more, pollen identification of same plant from which crown of thorns was made!

[seeker41]

You might some good info on the shroud Here

[HumanaeVitae]

Yep. And more than that. Like you care.

[gcruse]

 
It sounds like Rome has found someone who will tell them what they want to hear.
 

             BINGO

[seeker41]

Meant to include the word "find"

[HumanaeVitae]

Looks like atheists have found another piece of evidence to avoid.

[gcruse]

I know this is asking a lot, but use your head.
Do you think, after the last set of tests failing
to make the shroud old enough, that the
Vatican secretly picked this new testing lab
for its objectivity?

[HumanaeVitae]

No.

You use your head. The Shroud was "dated" by a bunch of atheists at 1130-1290. Ok. Fine. Please explain how a bunch of medieval bufoons produced a photonegative image on a piece of cloth, an image that they couldn't even see let alone verify for its accuracy, seven centuries before the invention of the camera.

[HumanaeVitae]

bufoons=buffoons.

[AncientAirs]

http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm

For specific news reports on the recent, controversial work.

[oldvike]

I read somewhere that those tests came back inaccurate because the scientists failed to take into account the buildup of bacteria on the cloth over the years. This newer bacteria apparently scewed the results.

[gcruse]

You use your head. The Shroud was "dated" by a bunch of atheists at 1130-1290.

 It was dated by scientific methodology.  You don't know the scientists
were atheists, either.  I know you would have preferred the Pope just
declare the shroud that of Jesus and be done with it.  Frankly, I don't
see why he didn't do it, either.  Maybe you can tell me.

Ok. Fine. Please explain how a bunch of
medieval bufoons produced a photonegative image on
a piece of cloth, an image that they couldn't even see let alone verify for
its accuracy, seven centuries before the invention of the camera.

[I]mage formation techniques employing technology readily
available to medieval cultures as far back as the eleventh
century strongly suggests that the negative image as found
on the Shroud of Turin was the product of a form of
primitive photography employing either silver
nitrate or silver sulphate as a light sensitive agent.

[j.havenfarm]

Please stop. You guys are killing me. Such a riot you are. Seriously, gcruse, before popping off, why don't you use YOUR head. The cloth is involved in a fire in, if memory serves, the 13th century. Smoke. Ash. Molten silver from the enclosure dripping directly on the cloth and causing burns and scorches. Carbon 14 dating is based on what???? that's right, as we are wont to say --- BINGO! --- carbon. Imagine that. Anyone who is not willing to at least concede the very real possibility that the fire tainted the carbon 14 dating is, at best, being wilfuly obtuse.

[HumanaeVitae]

"Image formation techniques employing technology readily available to medieval cultures as far back as the eleventh century strongly suggests that the negative image as found on the Shroud of Turin was the product of a form of primitive photography employing either silver nitrate or silver sulphate as a light sensitive agent."?

Wrong. Pickett and Pierce attempted to replicate this method and it failed to reproduce the three-dimensional quality of the Shroud. It's been tested over and over. Failure every time.

[HumanaeVitae]

You're exactly right. It did.

[RightWhale]

Please explain how 13th Century charlatans came up with a photonegative on a piece of pigment-free cloth

The image is of Leonardo da Vinci. He dabbled in photography and created the shroud using a camera of his own design. Whether he intended to deceive us in the 21st century is unlikely.

[gcruse]

The 'using your head' comment had to do with the motivation of the Vatican to very quietly pick a lab of their desire to test the shroud some more. Pay attention.

[j.havenfarm]

And another thing. I've seen the spots on TV about these convoluted processes to try to produce a similar image. So let me get this straight - - these medievel folks developed techniques to produce a barely visible image, most clearly visible under circumstances, e.g., photgraphic negative, that were not available to the people they were trying to fool. This in an age of profound ignorance, where miracles could be, and were, readily contrived and much more conventionally produced images could have been passed off as "painted by the hand of God," if the proper accompanying cirucmstances could be ginned up. Makes sense to me.

[gcruse]

  it failed to reproduce the three-dimensional quality

This phenomenon quite clearly conforms very closely to the
characteristics of the image as found in the Shroud of Turin
and if this hypothetical account is in any way accurate, it strongly
implies that the Shroud of Turin may be the only extant example
of a lost photographic technology which is normally assumed to
have been first discovered in the early nineteenth century by
such people as Thomas Wedgwood and Sir Humphry Davy.

[gcruse]

See posts 25 and 32. Thanks.

[Ramius]

I don't know if it's Him or not. I wasn't there. Someday we'll all find out. I'm OK with that.

[InvisibleChurch]

real or phony is irrelevant... the question a person must ask: How does this affect my salvation?

[j.havenfarm]

No, you pay attention, braniac. The carbon 14 tests were done what, 20, 22 years ago? They don't seem to have been in any big hurry to produce a contrary result. On top of which, your comment characterizes Vatican motive that is not stated by any of the persons quoted in the article and there is no Vatican comment as to why they have proceeded in this way. You have jumped to your conclusion, and just because you have such deep insight does not mean that you are right.

[blam]

" Anyone who is not willing to at least concede the very real possibility that the fire tainted the carbon 14 dating is, at best, being wilfuly obtuse."

I read a science report a while back that concedes that point.

[HumanaeVitae]

"it strongly implies that the Shroud of Turin may be the only extant example of a "lost photographic technology which is normally assumed to have been first discovered in the early nineteenth century by such people as Thomas Wedgwood and Sir Humphry Davy."

Ha! A lost photographic technology! Of course, it's the only example! Yeah, that's the ticket! What's next? It came from Atlantis?

You know what your statement says to me? This: "I really, really want to be an atheist". That's it. Anyway, enough throwing pearls before swine. if you don't want to see it, you'll never see it.

[j.havenfarm]

Amen, friend. Gotta go - 'night all.

[gcruse]

Experts on the Shroud of Turin said Wednesday they felt frustrated and betrayed
to learn a Swiss textile expert had obtained Vatican approval to test the sacred
cloth without involvement from the international scientific community.

Ah, we've come full circle.  Now I'll ask you.  What do you
think was the Vatican's motivation for secretly contracting
with a hand-picked lab to test more of the cloth?

[HumanaeVitae]

Also, an electron microsope that was trained over one of the "eyes" of the shroud clearly picked out the words "UCAI", part of an inscription of a Roman lepton that was only issued in upper Palestine, i.e. Jerusalem, under Pontius Pilate between 29-31 AD. But anyway, who cares. You don't wanna see it, you ain't gonna see it. I didn't come to FR to proselytize. If people want the "Full Dante" in the next world be my guest.

[HumanaeVitae]

'Night.

[gcruse]

You know what your statement says to me? This:
"I really, really want to be an atheist". That's it. Anyway, enough throwing
pearls before swine. if you don't want to see it, you'll never see it.

That wasn't my statement.    I included the
url links for my posts, which is more than
you did to back up yours.  If you wish
to refute the points the authors made,
I'm sure they will appreciate being corrected.

[MonroeDNA]

If the shroud does not date to what the bible says, well, then, maybe the bible is wrong about dates. As in, not fallable.

That would mean that people would have to think for themselves, and search for God on their own.

[Dinsdale]

if you don't want to see it, you'll never see it.

And if you want to see it no amount of carbon dating or plausable ways it could have developed will convince you otherwise.

It certainly was'nt a photographic technique. Cloths laying on bodys (in any era) can be stained by molds etc where there is contact. Also a statue heated then overlayed with a cloth produces images very like those on the shroud. Almost certainly a midevil fraud, just like the 'saint blood' that is supposed to reliquify on call (which has been reproduced using period chemicals and methods, does'nt change anything or anybodys beliefs).

The most cynical thing I've ever read is 'Life is like a long meeting, nothing gets resolved and nobodies opinions get changed'

[Nebullis]

[mysterio]

I think I can help here.

I did my master's degree research on biofilm that builds up in water lines.
Let me explain this simply.
Over the centuries, the Shroud has undergone some decay, just like any other piece of cloth that you might find from that era, only more limited due to care and preservation efforts.
Bacteria have been breaking down the cloth since it was woven into the Shroud. Now, when bacteria break down some of the cloth, divide, and die, do you think they just fall off the cloth? Well, some do. Many, however, do not. They form a microscopic layer around the thread. New bacteria are constantly growing on the cloth, and they colonize on the layer of bacteria which has been breaking down the cloth.
Multiply this times many centuries. Now, envision a strand of thread surrounded by many layers of a substance that is almost like plastic or scotch guard. A cross section would look something like the rings of a tree. The center layer would be the actual thread, while the surrounding layers would be dead and living bacteria.
Carbon dating measures C14. Since the decay of carbon 14 is constant and known, one can measure it and thus determine how long it has been decaying. This tells the researcher the age of the item being dated.
Now, is it only the actual cloth that is being carbon dated? No. It is the thread, plus all of the layers of bacteria, dating back from the cloth's origin to the present. One layer may be 2000 years old. One layer may be 10 years old. One layer may be 5 years old.
Thus, the initial carbon date obtained in the 1980s did not determine the age of just the Shroud. It determined the average age of the thread combined with the many layers of bacteria surrounding it. If it had determined that the age of the Shroud was 2000 years, we could thus assume that the Shroud is actually much older. If, however, all of the bacterial layers are removed, we are testing only the actual thread that forms the cloth. Thus, the new reading should be quite a bit more accurate.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions about this, I might be able to answer them a little more thoroughly.

[Young Werther]

I read somewhere that pollen taken from the cloth was consistent with the biologicals that existed around Jerusalem around 29-31 AD. You can fake a picture but what 13th Century forger would have the knowledge and wherewithal to include pollen "For Christ's Sake"? {Religious Pun intended}!

A relic in a monestary in Spain is supposed to be the veil of Veronica, the woman who wiped Jesus' face as he marched to Golgotha. The veil maintined the print of his face. Photographic/computer analysis confirms the thorn puncture wounds on his face are in the same place on both cloths. The scientist that did this analysis stated that he felt that these divine icons formed the basis for all artistic representation of Jesus and not vice versa.

I choose to believe!

[RightWhale]

That's him alright. Same schnozola, can't hide that.

The shroud could be as old as they say, but the images aren't. They are two separate images. The body probably isn't Leonardo, but the head is separate and is Leonardo. He got great mileage out of his camera obscura, used it all the time.

[Young Werther]

Follow Up:

Shroud of Turin