Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?
Keep and Bear Arms ^ | 28 August 2002 | Harry Schneider

Posted on 08/28/2002 5:16:11 PM PDT by 45Auto

The Bush administration is taking the most radical anti-gun position possible in the most important Supreme Court case in 60 years. The announced Bush position is that US Courts should not be allowed to even consider restoring the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans who lost those rights under the GCA 68 provision that says that your gun rights are forfeit if you were ever convicted of a felony or certain misdemeanors.

This includes domestic felonies like bringing a single round of hollow point pistol ammunition into New Jersey. The loss of gun rights is ex-post-facto and foreign felonies are included, this includes foreign felony convictions for the crime of smuggling bibles into Communist countries or teaching Christianity in certain Islamic countries.

It doesn't even take a felony like unknowingly entering Mexico with a box of ammunition (like Bean). You will also lose your gun rights if you were ever convicted of a state misdemeanor where you "could" have gotten more than two years. Until 1972 almost all Pennsylvania misdemeanors were ungraded and were punishable by up to three years. Thus almost every pre 72 Pennsylvania conviction for any misdemeanor such as a single DWI, drag racing or bastardy mandates the lifelong loss of gun rights even if no one was harmed and no jail times was involved. In Pennsylvania, with NRA support, they unsealed previously sealed juvenile records and took away the gun rights of people who were convicted of very minor offenses back in the 50's as 60's and have been model citizens ever since.

Since 1992 Congress has each year defunded the provision that allowed people to petition ATF to get their rights restored. This denial of due process caused some district courts to hear some appeals. Bush/Ashcroft/Olsen have announced an intention to argue before the Supreme Court that Unites States Courts should have no authority to even consider restoring gun rights in any case even if, like Bean the rights were taken for violating a foreign law that is no longer a felony in Mexico and is a Constitutionally protected right in the United States.

Bean is just one of the numerous anti-gun positions taken by the Bush Administration. Additional examples include disarming airline pilots, Emerson, and arguing that the total DC gun ban is a reasonable restriction on the 2nd Amendment.

Grass roots gun rights activists are aware of this and if Bush does not change soon, his anti-gun policies may harm the election chances of other establishment Republicans.

If the NRA gave Bush's actions the front page publicity that they deserve, the members would pressure Bush to get on track and he would have a better chance of being re-elected.

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

No. 00-40304

THOMAS LAMAR BEAN,

Petitioner-Appellee,

versus

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Respondents-Appellants.

Appeal from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont

June 20, 2001

Before POLITZ, DeMOSS, and STEWART, Circuit Judges.

POLITZ, Circuit Judge:

The Government appeals the trial court's finding that it had jurisdiction to review the application of Thomas Lamar Bean for relief from the federal firearm disabilities resulting from a conviction in Mexico, as well as its grant of said relief therefrom.

We affirm.

BACKGROUND

The facts of this case illustrate in caps underscored why Congress added the relief provision to the Federal Firearms Act, giving certain convicted felons an avenue to regain the right to possess a firearm. They are set forth in great detail in the trial court's opinion; we merely summarize them here.

In March 1998, Bean, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms licensed firearms dealer, was in Laredo, Texas, participating in a gun show. One evening he and three assistants decided to cross the border into Mexico for dinner. He directed his assistants to remove any firearms and ammunition from his vehicle, a Chevrolet Suburban, before crossing the border; however, a box of ammunition containing approximately 200 rounds inadvertently was left in the back. The box was in plain view and Mexican customs officers saw it when they sought to enter the Mexican Port of Entry at Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, Mexico. At the time importing ammunition into Mexico was considered a felony.(1) The three assistants were subsequently released but Bean, as the owner of the Suburban and the ammunition, was charged and convicted of the felony of unlawfully importing ammunition.(2)

Bean was incarcerated in Mexico for approximately six months before being released to the custody of the United States under the International Prisoner Transfer Treaty. He thereafter spent another month in federal prison before being released under supervision. As a convicted felon, under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1) Bean lost all rights to possess firearms. Section 925(c) of the statute, however, provides a means for relief from the firearms disabilities. Upon completion of his period of supervision in July, 1999, Bean petitioned the BATF for such relief so that he might return to his business.

At issue herein is the action and inaction of Congress since 1992. For this nigh decade, Congress has stated in its annual budget appropriation bill that "none of the funds appropriated herein shall be available to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities under 18 U.S.C § 925(c)."(3) Because the BATF could not use any appropriated funds to fulfill its responsibilities under the statute, it sent Bean a notice that it would not act upon his request due to the congressional action. Bean then petitioned the district court, contending that the BATF's letter denied his petition and exhausted his administrative remedies.

The district court, in its detailed Memorandum Opinion, discussed the statute, congressional actions, the various circuit opinions on this issue, including our decision in United States v. McGill,(4) and determined that it did, in fact, have jurisdiction to hear Bean's appeal. In granting Bean's petition it further found that the facts of this case underscore why § 925(c) permitted not only judicial review, but judicial supplementation of the record to prevent a miscarriage of justice.

ANALYSIS

Jurisdiction

In McGill we noted that Congress, through its appropriations acts, had reflected an intent to suspend the relief provided to individuals by § 925(c). As a consequence we opined that we lacked subject matter jurisdiction. As the Government correctly notes, ordinarily an inferior court is not at liberty to disregard the mandate of a superior court.(5) But in the instance herein presented, we must examine carefully the reasons and analysis by the trial court, and our earlier decision in light of, notably, the intervening passage of time and its effect.

The trial court, as had the McGill panel, extensively detailed the legislative history of the relief provisions and reached a different conclusion, noting: "Ultimately, the Court recognizes that an advocate can find an abundance of legislative history to support his position."(6) We do not here parse the committee or floor commentary but, rather, examine congressional action/inaction and its continuing effect.

As noted in the trial court's opinion, Congress first amended the Federal Firearms Act in 1965 to provide the potential and mechanism for certain convicted felons to obtain relief from federal firearms disabilities by petitioning the Secretary of the Treasury. It amended the relief provision in 1986 to provide for judicial review of executive decisions in order to better ensure that relief was available for those felons whose convictions were based on technical or unintentional violations.

In large measure, as a result of newspaper editorials about the cost to taxpayers of performing the investigations necessary under the relief provision,(7) as well as a report published by the Violence Policy Center listing instances wherein convicted felons had their firearms privileges restored and committed violent crimes,(8) a senate bill entitled the Stop Arming Felons (SAFE) Act was introduced in 1992 to eliminate the relief provision.(9) That bill, however, was never reported out of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Although it obviously has the power, Congress has not enacted legislation eliminating or amending § 925(c). Rather, both the House and Senate Appropriations Committees proposed language for the Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government Appropriations Act for Fiscal Year 1993 that precluded the BATF from using any appropriated funds to investigate petitions for such relief.(10) That language was incorporated in the appropriations bill ultimately passed that year and has been included in each subsequent annual appropriations act relating to BATF funding.(11)

We observed in McGill that "Congress has the power to amend, suspend or repeal a statute by an appropriations bill, as long as it does so clearly."(12) We cited Robertson v. Seattle Audubon Soc.(13) as authority for that proposition. Robertson opined "[A]lthough repeals by implication are especially disfavored in the appropriations context . . . Congress nonetheless may amend substantive law in an appropriations statute, as long as it does so clearly."(14)

The "especially disfavored" language hales from the high court's opinion in Tennessee Valley Authority v. Hill, et al.,(15) wherein the Court stated that the doctrine disfavoring repeals by implication "applies with ever greater force when the claimed repeal rests solely on an Appropriations Act."(16) In the subsequent Will case, upon which the Robertson Court relied, it addressed Congress' failure to fund promised federal pay raises previously authorized by statute by refusing to appropriate funds for those raises in each year's Appropriation Act. In Will the Court found Congress' actions were clear and intentional, and thus effectively rescinded the authorized raise for each year.(17) That decision led to the Court's comments in Robertson, noted above, upon which the McGill panel relied.

We find the facts at bar readily distinguishable from Will, and thus distinguishable from Robertson. Will involved authorized salary increases, a purely financial right, that Congress refused to fund. When it passed the Executive Salary Cost-of-Living Adjustment Act (18) in 1975 Congress promised certain federal employees annual cost-of-living salary increases, based upon certain financial criteria. It then changed its mind and rescinded that year's increase in each of the four years beginning in 1977.(19)

In the case at bar, Congress is not merely promising money then changing its mind and not making it available. Nor is it directly suspending a statutory provision. In enacting § 925(c) Congress granted certain persons administrative and judicial rights. The SAFE Act proposed to withdraw those rights, but Congress did not adopt that withdrawal. The Government insists, however, that Congress indirectly has abrogated those rights by necessarily recognizing same but declining expenditure of any funds for their enforcement. We find that action clearly distinguishable from the facts in the cited precedential cases and inimical to our constitutional system of justice.

In its early review of this conundrum, the McGill panel relied on Robertson. In addition to the noted factual differences of Robertson, Will, and Dickerson, we have a critical additional factor, the intervening passage of time and the resulting reality of the effective non-temporary "suspension" of statutorily created rights. We must conclude that Congress seeks to abrogate administrative and judicial rights it created, by using funding bills, after declining to address actual amendments to or revocation of the creating statute. Section 925(c) was enacted for apparently valid reasons, and citizens like Bean are entitled to the rights therein created and authorized unless and until Congress determines to change same. We must now conclude that merely refusing to allow the agency responsible for facilitating those rights to use appropriated funds to do its job under the statute is not the requisite direct and definite suspension or repeal of the subject rights. We further hold that when the BATF notified Bean that it would not act on his petition, his administrative remedies de facto were exhausted.(20) Accordingly, the trial court had jurisdiction to entertain this appeal.

The Merits

The Government cites as error the trial court's grant of relief, contending without citing any authority that when reviewing the actions of an administrative agency the court "stands in the shoes" of that agency and is bound by the applicable federal regulations. Here the Government contends 27 C.F.R. § 178.144(d) precludes relief where the petitioner is prohibited from possessing all types of firearms in the state in which he resides. It asserts that because Bean resides in Texas and under Texas law a convicted felon cannot possess firearms for five years after being released from confinement or supervised release,(21) it could not have granted his petition for relief in any event; therefore, the district court erred as a matter of law in doing so.

At the threshold we unqualifiedly reject the suggestion that a court stands in the shoes of an agency and is bound by all of its implementing regulations. Substantive federal regulations carry the force and effect of federal law; however, interpretive regulations serve merely to guide a court in applying a statute.(22) Generally, where a regulation "appears supported by the plain language of the statute and is adopted pursuant to the explicit grant of rulemaking authority," that regulation is considered as having legislative effect and accorded more than mere deference.(23) We find nothing in 27 C.F.R. § 178.144(d) that would come under such a definition. Nothing in § 925(c) authorizes the Secretary to restrict relief only to those cases where relief is available at the state level; indeed, nothing in the statute pertaining to relief even refers to the states. Section 925(c) pertains strictly to federal firearms disabilities and to relief from those federal disabilities. Absent any statutory language tying federal disabilities to state disabilities, or authorizing the Secretary to do so, we must hold that 27 C.F.R. § 178.144(d) is merely an interpretive regulation and does not bind the district court in its determination.(24) Concluding that the trial court did not err as a matter of law in granting the relief requested, we need not and do not address its determination that Bean's foreign conviction was not a predicate offense triggering the provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1).

CONCLUSION

We are mindful of the serious concerns articulated about convicted felons regaining the right to possess firearms, and of the need for congressional review and enhancement of the safeguards and procedures for appropriately accomplishing this apparently worthy goal, but we are faced herein with the almost incredible plight of Thomas Bean who, at most, was negligent in not ensuring that his associates completely performed the simple task directed, and who served months in Mexican and U.S. prisons for a simple oversight. We do not believe that any reasonable observer is persuaded that his offense creates a likelihood he represents a threat to the public's well-being, and it is beyond peradventure to believe that Congress, or those seeking to rescind § 925(c), intended for someone like Bean to lose his livelihood on the basis of the facts such as are before us. Neither equity nor the law require such an injustice.

The judgment appealed is AFFIRMED.

1. Purportedly because of the publicity arising from this case the offense has been reduced to a misdemeanor.

2. The record reflects the difficulties experienced by Bean during his arrest and initial incarceration, primarily based upon procedural issues which were compounded by his unfamiliarity with the Spanish language. Bean and the trial court both refer to these difficulties as raising constitutional concerns. Our disposition of this appeal does not rely thereon.

3. See Treasury, Postal Service and General Government Appropriations Act, 1993, Pub. L. No. 102-393, 106 Stat. 1729, 1732 (1992). The first year Congress denied the BATF funds to investigate any convicted felon. Beginning in Fiscal Year 1994, and in all subsequent appropriation acts applying to the BATF, a provision was added allowing funds to be used to investigate convicted corporate felons. See infra note 11.

4. 74 F.3d 64 (5th Cir. 1996)(finding that federal courts have no jurisdiction to hear appeals from individuals).

5. See e.g., Gegenheimer v. Galan, 920 F.2d 307 (5th Cir. 1991).

6. Bean v. United States, 89 F. Supp. 2d 828, 835 (E.D. Tex. 2000).

7. See, e.g., Why Are We Rearming Felons?, Washington Post, Sept. 25, 1991, at A24 (describing the relief provision as a "loophole"); and Felon Gun Program Should Be Disabled, Chicago Sun-Times, July 1, 1992, at 31.

8. Josh Sugarman, Putting Guns Back Into The Hands Of Felons: 100 Case Studies of Felons Granted Relief From Disability Under Federal Firearms Laws, Violence Policy Center (1992). The Center is a Washington, D.C. based gun-control advocacy group.

9. See 138 Cong. Rec. S2674-04, S2675 (daily ed. March 3, 1992)(floor comments on S. 2304 by its co-sponsor, Sen. Lautenberg (D-N.J.)). We note with particular irony that according to Sen. Lautenberg the original relief provision was enacted specifically to rescue the Winchester Firearms Co., whose parent corporation Olin Winchester had pleaded guilty to felony counts on a kickback scheme and whose very existence was threatened by the subsequent denial of its ability to possess and sell firearms. As previously noted, beginning in 1993 Congress amended its appropriations language to permit the BATF to process petitions for relief made by corporations. In the case at bar we are presented with a situation that is virtually indistinguishable from that used to justify those actions, i.e., absent the ability to possess and sell firearms Bean will lose his business. Bean is his "corporation," and the inequities of the situation are readily apparent. To the suggestion that a corporation, unlike an individual, cannot be a physical threat to use firearms to harm the public we note that the record is replete with testimony from legislators, law enforcement officers and BATF agents as to Bean's lawful character.

10. See H.R. Rep. 102-618 (1992); S. Rep. 102-353 (1992).

11. Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government Appropriations Act, 1994, Pub. L. No. 103-123, 107 Stat. 1226, 1228 (1993); Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government Appropriations Act, 1995, Pub. L. No. 103-329, 108 Stat. 2382,2385 (1994); Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government Appropriations Act, 1996, Pub. L. No. 104-52, 109 Stat. 468, 471 (1995); Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act, 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, 110 Stat. 3009-319 (1996); Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 1998, Pub. L. No. 105-61, 111 Stat. 1272, 1277 (1997); Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, Pub. L. No. 105-277, 112 Stat. 2681-485 (1998); Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 2000, Pub. L. No. 106-58, 113 Stat. 430, 434 (1999); and Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 2001, Pub. L. No. 106-554, 114 Stat. 2763, 2763A-129, (2000).

12. McGill, 74 F.3d at 66.

13. 503 U.S. 429 (1992).

14. Robertson, 503 U.S. at 440 (citing United States v. Will, et al., 437 U.S. 153 (1978)).

15. 437 U.S. 153 (1977).

16. Id. at 190 (emphasis in original).

17. With the exception of federal judges for two of the four years in question, where the Appropriation Act violated the Compensation Clause.

18. Pub. L. No. 94-82, 89 Stat. 419 (1975).

19. The Supreme Court considered and rejected the contention that the authorized increase remained outstanding but unfunded, concluding t


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: banglist; copernicus; rkba
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-270 next last

1 posted on 08/28/2002 5:16:11 PM PDT by 45Auto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
boomp

do we need the second amendment?  molon labe

no nonsense support of the right to keep and bear arms

2 posted on 08/28/2002 5:21:12 PM PDT by glock rocks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
"We must conclude that Congress seeks to abrogate administrative and judicial rights it created, by using funding bills, after declining to address actual amendments to or revocation of the creating statute. "

Its a very neat and totally illegal method of denying a citizen his Constitutional rights. Denial of rights by refusing to fund a review process. Rotten bastards.

3 posted on 08/28/2002 5:24:13 PM PDT by 45Auto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
...this includes foreign felony convictions for the crime of smuggling bibles into Communist countries or teaching Christianity in certain Islamic countries.

Don't you know that Bible smugglers are a menace? /sarcasm.

I can see why the government wants to keep guns away from violent people. But non-violent people are another matter. Bible smugglers, now that is going a bit too far. LOL!

4 posted on 08/28/2002 5:25:09 PM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto; *bang_list; Joe Brower; wardaddy; Squantos
Bang!
5 posted on 08/28/2002 5:27:19 PM PDT by Travis McGee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: glock rocks
Q: Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?

A: Because they are statists.

6 posted on 08/28/2002 5:54:05 PM PDT by Noumenon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
I'm constantly amazed at how anti-gun this administrations actions have been. They spout nice phrases from time to time, but offer =no= actions to back up their words. How utterly typical of republican politicians.
7 posted on 08/28/2002 5:58:28 PM PDT by zeugma
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: 45Auto
Grass roots gun rights activists are aware of this and if Bush does not change soon, his anti-gun policies may harm the election chances of other establishment Republicans.

I have to laugh at this. How many Americans even KNOW anyone who's committed a felony, much less having committed a felony themselves?

Felons shouldn't have guns. Period.

I'd think time would be better spent elsewhere than in trying to make the case to let criminals possess firearms.

9 posted on 08/28/2002 6:01:29 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeugma
I'm constantly amazed at how anti-gun this administrations actions have been. They spout nice phrases from time to time, but offer =no= actions to back up their words.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. What gun rights have you lost under Bush?

10 posted on 08/28/2002 6:04:33 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: glock rocks
Because they can>
11 posted on 08/28/2002 6:15:29 PM PDT by philetus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
Felons give up all kinds of rights. Liberty, the pursuit of happiness and sometimes the big one, life.

Bush/Ashcroft have made it quite clear that the RTKABA is an INDIVIDUAL right.

Find me another administration who has taken that position.

12 posted on 08/28/2002 6:18:48 PM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeugma
Would you care to comment on the fact that Ashcroft filed a brief with the Supreme Court stating that the second amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms irrespective of his ties to a state militia? This was a reversal of govt policy going back 40 years.
13 posted on 08/28/2002 6:22:09 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
Bush stated flat out that he and Ashcroft would strictly inforce the gun laws on the books.
14 posted on 08/28/2002 6:28:26 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
The court states:

"We are mindful of the serious concerns articulated about convicted felons regaining the right to possess firearms, and of the need for congressional review and enhancement of the safeguards and procedures for appropriately accomplishing this apparently worthy goal,"

Sinskpur you state:

"Felons shouldn't have guns. Period."

Amendment II states:

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, SHALL NOT be infringed."

What part of "shall not" is not understood?

In addition, no where in Art I, Sec 8, Powers of Congress, is there a reference to felons losing their right to keep and bear arms or for that matter any right.

Felons retain the right enumerated in Amendment VIII:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

It is disingenuous, absurd, and illogical that a portion of the Bill of Rights is suspended by Congress, which has no explicit power to do so, one enumerated right while another enumerated right can never be suspended by Congress.

There is absolutely no reference to "compelling state interest" stated in the Constitution for the Congress to invoke to constiutionally suspend rights.

This is congressional and judicial corruption at its worst.

15 posted on 08/28/2002 6:29:06 PM PDT by tahiti
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Noumenon
Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

L

16 posted on 08/28/2002 6:33:36 PM PDT by Lurker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur
This almost doesn't sound like a gun rights problem as much as a Judicial rights problem. How in the world can someone be called a felon for doing something in another country that would be perfectly legal here? Lose your rights because you had a beer in Saudi Arabia?
18 posted on 08/28/2002 6:36:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Sgt. Fury
By the way, Bush's primary problem is that he is as dumb as a box of rocks.

Stupid statement of the week.

19 posted on 08/28/2002 6:38:52 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Noumenon; 45Auto
Bump!
20 posted on 08/28/2002 6:39:39 PM PDT by Uncle Bill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
I see statist-boy shows up again defending the indefensible and shilling for his figurehead/mascott/icon. Are you sure you're not a clintonoid in need of a personality to sew your lips to? You act like it.

I know someone who was convicted of joyriding when he was 19 (nearly 40 years ago). Since then, he's grown a 2 million dollar real estate busines, became a county commisioner and is active in his church... in addition to being a wonderful human being.

Yet the morons amongst us would have him and his family slaughtered should anyone have the will to do so.

21 posted on 08/28/2002 6:42:03 PM PDT by AAABEST
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
How many Americans even KNOW anyone who's committed a felony, much less having committed a felony themselves?

First of all, if these "felons" are so dangerous, then why are they being allowed out of jail to start with?

Being a "felon" by today's definition is not what it was 20 years ago. Most people would be very surprised by how easy it is to get branded a felon, under what passes as our legal system.

(IIRC, not only are felons barred from buying guns, but also anyone with a misdemeanor conviction that could have resulted in more than 1 year in jail)

22 posted on 08/28/2002 6:42:31 PM PDT by Mulder
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Sgt. Fury
It was gun owners and NRA members who gave the election to Bush

No it was the libertarians, NO, it was the pro-lifers, No, it was the home schoolers, no, it was the free traders, No, it was the Reform Party, No, it was............ Every damned single-issue group on this forum that has made your claim.

23 posted on 08/28/2002 6:42:39 PM PDT by Texasforever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
Its a very neat and totally illegal method of denying a citizen his Constitutional rights. Denial of rights by refusing to fund a review process. Rotten bastards

I couldn't have said it better myself.

24 posted on 08/28/2002 6:43:43 PM PDT by Mulder
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tahiti
Balogna.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

If you're a felon, you're rights can and should be abridged. At what level is case dependent.

25 posted on 08/28/2002 6:44:02 PM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Sgt. Fury
I'm not defending Bush, believe me. He's a back door man. He always leaves it ajar just in case he needs a hasty exit.
26 posted on 08/28/2002 6:46:33 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: 45Auto
Actually, the government's appeal of the original ruling is a GOOD THING. Why, because if they don't appeal, the ruling only affects the one case. If they do appeal, and lose, as they did, then it affects the law in the entire circuit. If they appeal this one, the Supreme Court stoops to actually hear the case, and they lose again, then that affects the law in the entire country. Thus people all over the fifth ciruit can now appeal to the courts, rather than the BATF, to have their RKBA restored and if the Supreme Court affirmed the ruling, people all over the country could do so.

Besides just reading this ruling, wheren in the fifth circuit slaps the executive branch upside the head about "rules" that have the affect of law, is worth whatever the appeal cost and then some, all by itself. :)

27 posted on 08/28/2002 6:52:56 PM PDT by El Gato
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST
I know someone who was convicted of joyriding when he was 19 (nearly 40 years ago). Since then, he's grown a 2 million dollar real estate busines, became a county commisioner and is active in his church... in addition to being a wonderful human being.

Yet the morons amongst us would have him and his family slaughtered should anyone have the will to do so.

I'm assuming you're drunk. If you're not, then you've lost what little mind you've got left.

28 posted on 08/28/2002 7:07:23 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
We lost enough gun rights under Clinton. Which, if any, of those LOST RIGHTS have we regained under Bush? He ran as a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment....at least thats what the NRA and other gun organizations said. Well, does that just mean pro-gun in comparison to Clinton? If that is the case, then that's pretty sad. More Bush smoke and mirrors...just like his daddy.

His daddy, if you'll remember, issued an Executive Order (sound familiar?) that banned the importation of the wildly popular and very inexpensive Chinese 7.62x39 ammo as well as the importation of the extremely well made and extremely expensive HK PSG-1 semi-auto rifle...a "sniper rifle" but not one ever used in any crime. And, hell, my customized M1A is darn near as good....is that on a list somewhere? An amBUSH list?

I have been closely watching both Bush 41 and 43, ever alert for Constitutional conflicts just like those EO's. Now, I agree that the situation would be about 1000% WORSE with Gore as President! But if you "Talk the TALK...you'd BETTER walk the WALK!"

I am so sick of Republicans taking gun owners for granted because "they have nowhere else to go." Democrats learned that hard lesson and they are acting on it this time around. Bush had better remember that.

29 posted on 08/28/2002 7:13:01 PM PDT by ExSoldier
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07
That's all well and good if felons are stripped of gun ownership as part of their sentence, but the Constitution explicitly prohibits ex post facto laws.

And even then, if a felon is too dangerous to be trusted with a gun, then he shouldn't be let out into society. Once his sentence is up, he is by right a free man once again, with all the natural rights that go along with it, including the right to self-defense.

30 posted on 08/28/2002 7:13:25 PM PDT by inquest
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: ExSoldier
His daddy, if you'll remember, issued an Executive Order (sound familiar?) that banned the importation of the wildly popular and very inexpensive Chinese 7.62x39 ammo as well as the importation of the extremely well made and extremely expensive HK PSG-1 semi-auto rifle...a "sniper rifle" but not one ever used in any crime. And, hell, my customized M1A is darn near as good....is that on a list somewhere? An amBUSH list.

You can't own a cannon either. So what?

31 posted on 08/28/2002 7:19:50 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee; AAABEST; Shooter 2.5; Noumenon; 45Auto; wardaddy; Squantos
I was speaking with Dave LaCourse of the SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) on Tuesday afternoon, and they have filed an amicus brief with the SCOTUS on this Bean case, which, according to him, the SCOTUS has already agreed to hear starting in October. So far, they are the ONLY organization to file an amicus brief based on Second Amendment grounds.

Whether or not the SCOTUS agrees to hear the case on those grounds is still up in the air. Given their lack of gonads displayed to date, I'm not holding my breath, but here's some info for y'all:

SAF Bean Brief: http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/Legal/BeanBrief.htm

Docket information from the U.S. Supreme Court Website: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/01-704.htm

Read the Fifth Circuit Opinion here: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/00/00-40304-cv0.htm

AP Story: http://www.boston.com/news/daily/22/felon_gun.htm


32 posted on 08/28/2002 7:20:07 PM PDT by Joe Brower
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ExSoldier
I am so sick of Republicans taking gun owners for granted because "they have nowhere else to go."

Republicans can take all issues for granted because voters believe they have nowhere else to go.

33 posted on 08/28/2002 7:20:33 PM PDT by PuNcH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
You can't own a cannon either. So what?

Uhhhgh... You just compared a semi-automatic rifle to a cannon.

34 posted on 08/28/2002 7:22:29 PM PDT by PuNcH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: inquest
Once his sentence is up, he is by right a free man once again, with all the natural rights that go along with it, including the right to self-defense.

Nope. His sentence can contain probation, a prohibition on working with children, his forfeiture of his right to sit on the board of a corporation and a prohibition on his RTKABA.

35 posted on 08/28/2002 7:23:18 PM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Felons shouldn't have guns. Period.

Depends on what you consider a "felony".

36 posted on 08/28/2002 7:25:00 PM PDT by meyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Noumenon
Q: Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?
A: Because they are statists.



You beat me to it. It's a good thing thought crimes do not exist on FR. "Statist" is the vilest, most despicable label I can apply to a person.

Regards

J.R.
37 posted on 08/28/2002 7:25:35 PM PDT by NMC EXP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Sgt. Fury
voting for the 'demonrats' will certainly be of great comfort to the gun owners of america and a great assist to 'all' true american citizens---is that what we really want??
38 posted on 08/28/2002 7:27:31 PM PDT by cmotormac44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: MissAmericanPie
He always leaves it ajar just in case he needs a hasty exit.

Basic survival tool of any big-time politician. Very few pols travel without it. Bush is not unique in that respect.

39 posted on 08/28/2002 7:29:57 PM PDT by meyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Noumenon
Q: Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?

A: Because they are statists third way socialists.

40 posted on 08/28/2002 7:31:27 PM PDT by S.O.S121.500
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur; Admin Moderator
I'm assuming you're drunk. If you're not, then you've lost what little mind you've got left.

28 posted on 8/28/02 7:07 PM Pacific by sinkspur

Do we need this kind of personal attacker on FR?

41 posted on 08/28/2002 7:34:53 PM PDT by Travis McGee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Joe Brower
bttt
42 posted on 08/28/2002 7:36:07 PM PDT by Travis McGee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee
Ugh!!!!
43 posted on 08/28/2002 7:37:52 PM PDT by wardaddy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ExSoldier
Short course in Politics 101.
First we get more pro-gun people in Congress and the Senate. Then we tell those pro-gun politicians to vote for pro-gun bills.
Then Bush signs those Bills.
Easy.

If we don't do this, we keep punching more holes in the lifeboat like this article is doing and we lose.
That's easy too.
44 posted on 08/28/2002 7:38:23 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee
If Mexicans were allowed to own guns they might actually do something about their corrupt and ossified government instead of throwing their hands in the air and striking north.
45 posted on 08/28/2002 7:40:21 PM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Speaking of drunks.....

Your statement is too stupid for me to comment on out loud.

Stay safe; stay armed; and smoke 'em if you got 'em.


46 posted on 08/28/2002 7:41:51 PM PDT by Eaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee
Read AAABEST's characterization of those who disagreed with him as a "moron." Oh, and I'm a clintonoid in search of someone "to sew my lips to."

I give as good as I get, Travis.

47 posted on 08/28/2002 7:45:16 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee
Reply # 28 to reply # 21 was appropriate.
48 posted on 08/28/2002 7:45:21 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Eaker; Travis McGee
Your statement is too stupid for me to comment on out loud.

This is a personal attack, according to Travis McGee.

Since you don't quote the statement, it's hard to respond.

You prefer shotguns to rifles, I see.

49 posted on 08/28/2002 7:47:56 PM PDT by sinkspur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Noumenon
Q: Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?
A: Because they are statists.

Very succinct, and very accurate.

50 posted on 08/28/2002 7:48:28 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-270 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson