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Officials Defend Air Marshals' Acts
AP | Sunday, September 1, 2002 | By PATRICK WALTERS

Posted on 09/01/2002 1:58:20 PM PDT by JohnHuang2

Officials Defend Air Marshals' Acts

By PATRICK WALTERS .c The Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Federal officials defended the response of an air marshal who trained his gun on a passenger-filled jet cabin for 30 minutes after detaining a man, prompting protests by a judge who was on the flight.

Two armed marshals detained the man on Delta Flight 442, which was flying from Atlanta to Philadelphia with 183 people on board, because he allegedly was rummaging through other people's luggage.

One marshal then held his gun on the coach cabin passengers because some of them ignored orders to remain seated with their seat belts on, a spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration said Sunday.

``If people would have stayed in their seats and heeded those warnings, that would not have happened,'' said TSA spokesman Robert Johnson in Washington. ``It's our opinion that it was done by the book.''

He said the TSA, which oversees federal air marshals, was still reviewing the marshals' response on the Saturday flight. The man whom the marshals detained was released and the U.S. Attorney's office decided not to press charges, said FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williams.

Johnson said that despite the passengers' complaints, he thought the marshals did what they needed to do to make sure that the plane could land safely.

``It's a highly charged situation,'' Johnson said. ``It's (about) keeping the plane secure.''

Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge James A. Lineberger, who was sitting diagonally across from the detained man, said he thought the marshals overreacted by holding their semiautomatic weapons on passengers for so long.

Lineberger also said he hadn't noticed any disturbance before the marshals suddenly took the man up to first class and restrained him.

Several minutes later, the judge said, the marshals returned to the coach cabin and pulled out their guns.

``I assumed at that moment that there was going to be some sort of gun battle,'' he said. ``I'm looking right down the barrel of the gun as though it was pointed at me.''

Lineberger said he plans to file a complaint with the TSA on Tuesday. He said about 30 other passengers also plan to complain.

David and Susan Johnson of Mobile, Ala., said they hadn't been aware of any disturbance when the sky marshals took the man first to the back of the plane and then to the first-class section.

``It never made sense,'' said Susan Johnson, 51, a social worker. ``This guy was not any physical threat that we could see. Maybe he said some things to them that made them concerned. He just appeared to us unstable, emotionally.''

One passenger, however, said he thought the air marshals handled the situation in a calm and professional manner.

``These guys looked pretty well like they had things under control,'' said Robert Venditti-Kramer, 28, who was in first class. He said the marshals only pointed their guns straight down the aisle, not at any passengers. ``I think the situation was extremely well-handled.''

Delta Airlines spokeswoman Kristi Tucker said airline officials would talk with crew members on the flight and would cooperate with federal authorities, but she declined to comment further.

After the plane landed, police boarded and briefly questioned another man sitting behind Lineberger, but did not detain him, the judge said.


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Sunday, September 1, 2002

Quote of the Day by Alberta's Child

1 posted on 09/01/2002 1:58:20 PM PDT by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
Cry Babies
2 posted on 09/01/2002 2:02:17 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: joesnuffy
I Agree

The air marshals did their job well IMHO.
3 posted on 09/01/2002 2:05:40 PM PDT by cmsgop
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To: JohnHuang2
Just another group of jack booted thugs doing what the federal govt pays them to do.

So whats the problem?

4 posted on 09/01/2002 2:06:47 PM PDT by dts32041
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To: JohnHuang2
"It never made sense,'' said Susan Johnson, 51, a social worker. ``This guy was not any physical threat that we could see. Maybe he said some things to them that made them concerned. He just appeared to us unstable, emotionally."

This woman probably has the power to take away kids from their parents, file false charges (It appeared to me .... ) and sundry other things that should disqualify her as a legitimate social worker.

Now that I've said it, I wonder ...

What is a legitimate social worker?

5 posted on 09/01/2002 2:07:32 PM PDT by knarf
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To: joesnuffy
That "judge" probably doesn't think ANY police officer should ever be armed.
6 posted on 09/01/2002 2:09:31 PM PDT by stumpy
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To: JohnHuang2
I'm still waiting to hear what this guy allegedly did wrong... some articles say he was talking to a passenger in the seat behind him... other articles say he was looking into other people's luggage... and yet, the guy was released with no charges... so what the hell do I know?

Until they can come up with an actual reason for what they did, I'm going to believe that they (the air marshals) over-reacted...

7 posted on 09/01/2002 2:11:42 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: JohnHuang2
The last people on plane to have guns should be the air marshalls. Given them a decent few weeks of close combat, takedown, and restraining first. Have some good old prison guards teach it.

Right now only two things define an air marshall: a stamped badge and a popgun. None of them will make it to retirement -- they'll either go nuts or have a blood clot or heart attack that kills them in a few years. No one can ride hours on hours in airline seats and stay healthy. The job is 99.995% utter boredom -- we'll see more of this sporadic self-assertion on their parts, not less, as they each get closer to the ragged edge of nutanity.

8 posted on 09/01/2002 2:22:09 PM PDT by bvw
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To: stumpy
This judge was flying coach. From the tenor of the article there were no guns in first-class. What's up with that?
9 posted on 09/01/2002 2:43:00 PM PDT by Madame de Winter
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To: dts32041
What do people expect?These air-marsalls can't win for losing.There were probably numerous announcements for people to remain seated and a lot of people didn't.If the crew tells you to sit down. Then sit down and shut-up.If people won't stay seated when there is an incident then keep the guns out. Who knows what this guy said? I have met numerous air-marshalls and everyone of them has been as nice as could be.
10 posted on 09/01/2002 2:43:25 PM PDT by moteineye
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To: bvw
These guys are undercover right? I was thinking the other day that they might be the ones in danger. If someone pulls a gun how does a passenger know they are who they say they are? If someone with a gun flashes a badge and tells passengers to sit down and keep their seat belts on what are they supposed to do? Didn't the terrorists have fake IDs?
11 posted on 09/01/2002 2:50:46 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: JohnHuang2
Hard to say whether they were right or not.

Just because there was one nut case on board doesn't make it seem reasonable to hold all the other passengers at the point of a gun for half an hour. If the troublemaker looked like a certified Arab terrorist, maybe, but there is nothing here to indicate that he was anything of the kind.

Also, this article doesn't make it clear what is meant by passengers getting up out of their seats. If they refused to sit down when ordered, that's one thing, but if the marshals refused to give them permission to go get up and go to the bathroom after sitting obediently for half an hour, that's something else. I suspect the latter. After all, there were TWO air marshals, which should be more than sufficient to check out and frisk passengers individually if they asked to leave their seats.

12 posted on 09/01/2002 3:00:00 PM PDT by Cicero
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To: knarf
One born with a two parent family... a mom and a KNOWN father... legitimate...

third generation, no known parental line, got her job at social services, to get her off of welfare.... illegitimate.

OH, you were questioning that social programs were actually "legitimate" didnt you?

What were we thinking? OF COURSE, all hail the nanny state.

The marshals however, did a good job it looks to me.
13 posted on 09/01/2002 4:55:31 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2
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To: JohnHuang2
I have heard before the argument against the use of Air Marshals that "What would happen if a terrorist were to gain control of the Marshals weapon?" Now we know. Marshals are traveling in pairs, the second to cover the first Marshals back while he deals with the situation.

I can understand the confusion as a pasenger is taken down by an armed man. Many would want to see. Perhaps others, thinking they were averting a hijacking, would attack the Marshal. Since the Marshals are undercover (to be otherwise would diminish their effectiveness) these sorts of mis-understandings are to be expected.

What if this had been a hijacking? A passenger acts oddly and is subdued by the Marshals who have now revealed who they are. While they deal with the unruly passenger, their backs to the rest of the cabin, they are set upon by 4 or more hijackers. Having your weapon drawn and trained upon the passengers is the only way to ensure control of the flight until it can be put down at the nearest airport and additional security brought in to question the other passengers.

What this judge (and others ) seems to be suffering from is a sense of indignation that THEY were considered a suspect. They miss the point. They individually were not considered a suspect. A single officer can only consider that the entire group be under control as any of them might be an accomplice. This is a war on terrorism, and the rules of engagement have changed. If you cannot accept the possiblity of this happening to you, stay off of airplanes.

The only thing about this story that really disturbs me is that if Air Marshals are travelling in pairs, then their woefully inadequate numbers can only cover half the flights as they might. Another sign pointing out that arming the pilots is the only realistic option.

14 posted on 09/01/2002 5:36:41 PM PDT by maximus@Nashville
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To: cmsgop
I certainly haven't been defending law enforcement on here recently but in this case I have to back them up. They took control of the plane when passengers would not obey instructions during a disturbance. For all they knew there could be 3 or 4 more assisting this guy and they had to take control of the cabin.
15 posted on 09/01/2002 9:02:19 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: moteineye
Yes. If all Americans would learn to immediately obey each and every order given them by any and every bureaucrat, armed or unarmed, we could live in freedom without such hassles.
16 posted on 09/01/2002 9:38:15 PM PDT by per loin
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To: dts32041
Just another group of jack booted thugs doing what the federal govt pays them to do.
So are you the type that when the police tell you to remain in your car, you get out anyway?

If the police tell you to remian in your vehicle then you remain in your vehicle and if the air marshall tells you to remain in your seat then you remain in your seat.

I think that most people know that I am no fan of intrusive govt agencies but the air marshalls are certainly not one of these and neither are the police. People need to respect authority, what reason could you possibly give for a passenger not remaining in his seat when told to do so by the air marshalls, other than having a total disrespect for authority that is??? Either that or a very low IQ...
17 posted on 09/01/2002 9:53:56 PM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: per loin
Yes. If all Americans would learn to immediately obey each and every order given them by any and every bureaucrat, armed or unarmed, we could live in freedom without such hassles.

You seem to think the only two options are obey every order or none and that obeying ANY is bad. That doesn't fly and does nothing to determine whether the marshals particular order was worth obeying.
18 posted on 09/02/2002 1:14:10 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: JohnHuang2
Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge James A. Lineberger, who was sitting diagonally across from the detained man, said he thought the marshals overreacted by holding their semiautomatic weapons on passengers for so long.

Absolutely.
Let's see now. The Air Marshals' role was always intended to enforce the "stay in your seats rule and seatbelts on" with automatic weapons?

If that is an argument, I will throw my weight completely to opposing "air marshalls" on any flight, and rely instead on the common sense and initiative of the passengers to deal with both unruly passengergers and terrorists.

This "by the book" BS is untenable and unacceptable.
We are the dogs, they are the tail. If they can't deal with that they can go back to intimidating children and old ladies.
The rules are never the end in themselves. Anyone who thinks they are, or acts as if they are, should not be enforcing them. Period.

I can just see in the future an air marshall shoot passengers because he is "protecting" a suspected terrorist.
That will be ugly and anti-climatic. Need it come to that?

19 posted on 09/02/2002 1:25:55 AM PDT by Publius6961
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To: per loin
That is not the point.The air-marshall felt that someone could rush up the aisle to the cockpit. He had no way of knowing if there were other perpetrators in the back cabin,There could have been a pretend, regular passenger waiting for events to shake out to make their move.Two or three passengers could get up pretending to use the restroom etc.Many hijackings have had more than one hijacker.Some hijackings involve 4,5 or 6 people.The lives of all the passengers was at stake.Who knows what this psgr. said. He could have implied such.
Obeying air marshalls and the pilots and flight attns. at 60,000 feet is imperative during a situation .They have more information that any passenger. Passengers were in the way of the air-marshalls trying to ascertain what was happening. These passengers were dumb and stupid..Passengers walking around could have been imperiling the lives of everyone on that flight.If they had remained seated the air marshall could have relaxed his stance. If this marshall had accidently shot someone It would have been because of these arrogant passengers refusing to comply in an emergency.
20 posted on 09/02/2002 7:58:47 AM PDT by moteineye
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