The New York Times Strikes Out: Barry Bonds, Race, and Mr. Subliminal

Toogood Reports ^ | 3 September 2002 | Nicholas Stix

[mhking]

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[bootless]

Thanks ... still reading.

Head coach? Sheesh. Just as bad as a local radio commercial that aired during every single Giants game for the plumbers' union. Two plumbers at the game talking about some baseball player: "He had a great training camp!"

??? Maybe he moonlighted as a place kicker during the All-Star Break.

Now to actually read the read of the article...

[mrustow]

Ping to list.

[mrustow]

Giant Growl!

[r9etb]

It doesn't occur to Grann that his easy access to Bonds might have derived from the institutional power of the New York Times, or that Bonds, who is a bright man, likely did a background check on the writer, and determined that he was a greenhorn when it came to sports, and painfully pc, so as to be at worst, harmless, and at best, useful.

Mr. Stix made some reasonably good points up until this whopper, which is pure crap.

Yes, the "Bonds rules" probably do exist in some sense; and yes, Grann probably amplified them in order to give his story more zing. But if Grann's the greenhorn Stix makes him out to be, I suspect that he simply went up to Bonds at a "prohibited time", asked him a few questions, got into his good graces (as might be expected for a guy who's writing a puff-piece on you), and that was it.

This conspiracy angle is probably as bad as anything Grann did.

[BluesDuke]

This author makes two mistakes: 1) The "dilution" of pitching by expansion is not a protracted condition; historically, such "dilution," real or alleged, rights itself within about three seasons. (You may or may not have noticed that, this season, even with the continuing fractuous strike zones, the pitchers by and large have been taking back large enough degrees of plate control - the league ERAs are actually down significantly, and there are several pitchers in each league with excellent chances of finishing their seasons with ERAs under 3.)

2) In the formative years of Aaron's and Mays's careers, the National League still had preponderance enough of the kind of cozy hitter's parks that have been considered criminal since the opening of Camden Yards invited a rash of retropark building many of which are also hitter's havens: Aaron and Mays played half their games on the road, and did a ducal amount of hitting in places like Wrigley Field, Ebbets Field, Crosley Field (in Cincinnati, where in the 1950s the Reds were your classic powerhouse hit/weakfish pitch club), Milwaukee County Stadium, (opened: 1953), the Polo Grounds (forget the park's impossibly deep center field, if you were a pull-hitting power hitter or could go the opposite way, the Polo Grounds to left and right fields was a fair enough hitter's park), even Shibe Park (which remained the home of the Phillies after the Athletics moved to Kansas City, and was a pretty neutral park, overly favouring neither a hitter nor a pitcher to any great extent), and Sportsman's Park in St. Louis (basically a neutral park, when the Cardinals had a decent pitching staff such as they generally lacked in the 1950s). 3)

Aaron and Mays didn't get as close as the author thinks to having to play in an era of pitchers' parks until the mid-1960s, when a few pitcher's paradises - Dodger Stadium, Shea Stadium, the Astrodome (the park was so pitcher friendly that the only conclusion to make about the Astros of the 1960s was that they simply had pitching fairly described, on average, as horsesh@t, at least until Larry Dierker and Don Wilson developed and emerged in 1968-69), Busch Stadium - and a few neutral parks (Riverfront Stadium, Three Rivers Stadium, Olympic Stadium, Veterans Stadium) came online. Bonds also played at least a couple of seasons in the infamous Candlestick and did rather splendidly there. (The myths aside, Candlestick Park was actually a neutral park more than a hitter's nightmare - though Giant batters almost never won batting championships, the Giants of the 1960s were hoisting up a passel of Hall of Famers, three Hall of Fame hitters - Mays, Willie McCovey, and Orlando Cepeda - and two Hall of Fame pitchers, Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry; not to mention, a couple of guys who might have been Hall of Famers had their heads not been up their arses, like Jack Clark.)

[GmbyMan]

I'm not so sure that people don't respond negatively to Bonds because he is just a jerk. Like Ted Williams, he has an up and down relationship with the press. Still, the last two years have cemented Bonds, the player, as just about the best player who ever lived not named Babe Ruth. Sometimes I do think baseball fans oughta worry more about what they see on the field and not what baseball players say off the field. They are irrelevent. Bonds is amazing to watch and ,contradicting the article, he is a better player than either Hank Aaron or Willie Mays were.

[BluesDuke]

And, for the record, if I had to make the absolute choice between the two, I'd probably give them equal playing time. Ruth has the better offencive stats overall, but Bonds would actually do less to keep your team from winning than Ruth. Bonds is a better outfielder than Ruth was (Bonds's range factor in the outfield, career, through last season: 0.32 above his league. Ruth's range factor in the outfield, career: 0.15 below his league), and Bonds is a no-questions-asked superior baserunner than Ruth (who could not run, either with any speed or with any great intelligence, and cost his team wins enough by his insistence on running the bases at will and costing his team bases; the 1926 World Series, in which he killed the Yankees' last chance to overtake the St. Louis Cardinals in Game Seven - this was the game in which Grover Cleveland Alexander wheeled in hung over from the bullpen in the seventh and struck out Tony Lazzeri with the bases loaded to kill a Yankee rally - by trying on his own to steal second with two out, Bob Meusel at bat, and Lou Gehrig on deck).

And those who insist on judging Bonds solely by the fact that he may be one of the biggest horse's asses in the game should be reminded that a) Ruth himself was one of the biggest horse's asses in the game in his day, a booze-and-broads hound deluxe who was probably lucky that the sporting press of his day was as sycophantic as the sporting press today is not; and, b) Barry Bonds, say what you will about him, never hung a man out the window of a fast-moving train by his heels, not even to be funny. (The Bambino did it - to his own manager. You can look it up.)

But then, I'm going to tell you that I think Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were way better baseball players than Babe Ruth was in spite of Ruth's surreal offencive stats. (Think about this: If you judge Yankee players by the pennants and World Series they've won, Babe Ruth in a thirteen-year time as a regular won seven pennants and four Series - three of which were won as much if not more because of Lou Gehrig - but Mickey Mantle in a thirteen-year stretch played on eleven pennant winners and seven Series winners.) Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were the very essence of the five-tool position player; Babe Ruth was not; Barry Bonds, by and large, has been. And it won't kill Ruth's standing as perhaps the greatest marquee idol the game has ever known to say that there came a player better than he in due course, or that there are players today who stand a decent chance of proving to have been better, even, than Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle.

[Doomonyou]

Bonds also played at least a couple of seasons in the infamous Candlestick and did rather splendidly there. (The myths aside, Candlestick Park was actually a neutral park more than a hitter's nightmare...

The problem players (and fans, for that matter) Have with the Stick is the weather. Some of the night games started out around seventy degrees, no wind, basic short sleave weather, then around the 7th inning or so, The wind picked up, the fog rolled in and you would litterally freeze your ass off. the cold, wet, foggy wind would penetrate layers of blankets and goose down. Your nose, toes, and fingers would get numb near the end of the game. That's the nightmare of the place. Day games were usually pretty plesant.

You can see the lights of candlestick from the nosebleed seats along the left field line at Pac Bell. One game earlier this year, around 7 pm, I could see the fog rolling over the hill and into the Stick, reminding me of the bad old night games over there, Didn't even need a jacket that night at Pac Bell.

[BluesDuke]

The problem players (and fans, for that matter) Have with the Stick is the weather. Some of the night games started out around seventy degrees, no wind, basic short sleave weather, then around the 7th inning or so, The wind picked up, the fog rolled in and you would litterally freeze your ass off. the cold, wet, foggy wind would penetrate layers of blankets and goose down. Your nose, toes, and fingers would get numb near the end of the game. That's the nightmare of the place. Day games were usually pretty plesant.

You're telling me little I didn't already know about the Stick. (I have heard only too many fans who were there call the place the Dip-Stick, among other epithets.) But did you know that Willie Mays in his years playing in Candlestick Park actually hit slightly better in his home park than he hit on the road (and he was always a deadly hitter on the road; his home-road split isn't even close to being the glaring difference that identifies a "homer" - we're not talking Dick Stuart or Dante Bichette here), and that he hit slightly more home runs in the notorious Stick than he did on the road in his Candlestick years? What rates Candlestick as a neutral park is that, by and large, hitters and pitchers did about equally well in the park - Juan Marichal would have been the outstanding pitcher of the 1960s had it not been for a fellow named Koufax (Marichal was better than Bob Gibson, who rates an extremely close third behind the Dominican Dandy and Sandy the K), Jack Sanford had his career year (1962) pitching in the Stick, and a craftsman named Perry wasn't exactly Boom-Boom Beck in the Stick. Willie Mays may have observed that Candlestick was ok once you figured out your way through the flying peanut shells and hot dog wrappers, but whatever its infamies as a baseball park Candlestick Park turned out to be pretty neutral. (If you're a cynic, you can translate that to mean everybody got an equal opportunity hurt in that joint...)

[BluesDuke]

On the other hand...

Study these, and learn what not to do. - Walter O'Malley, to his architect, handing the man the plans for Candlestick Park before the man commenced to designing Dodger Stadium.

[Doomonyou]

You're telling me little I didn't already know about the Stick.

I should have checked your location on your Profile page. Obviously, you've been there, done that. So for all those who haven't had the pleasure of a night game at the stick, the horror stories are true!

Hey! It's time to update "The Diamond District", nice read!

[Doomonyou]

Study these, and learn what not to do. - Walter O'Malley, to his architect, handing the man the plans for Candlestick Park before the man commenced to designing Dodger Stadium.

Location, Location, Location.

[mrustow]

FYI

[mrustow]

It doesn't occur to Grann that his easy access to Bonds might have derived from the institutional power of the New York Times, or that Bonds, who is a bright man, likely did a background check on the writer, and determined that he was a greenhorn when it came to sports, and painfully pc, so as to be at worst, harmless, and at best, useful.

Mr. Stix made some reasonably good points up until this whopper, which is pure crap....

This conspiracy angle is probably as bad as anything Grann did.

Apparently, you have much deeper powers of insight than I do. In the passage you quote, I fail to see any "conspiracy angle," rather than the suggestion of a confluence of interests. Did the writer say that Bonds and the editors of the New York Times sat down, and said, "Here's what we're going to do"? That would be a conspiracy.

[dead]

Grann leaves out that Mantle, a classic, falling-down drunk, drank himself to death. And that Mantle, who played his entire career in New York and traveled by taxi, was never arrested for DUI.

Or he’d let Billy Martin drive, cause Billy could get all sorts of liquored up and handle a car no problem.

[r9etb]

My "conspiracy angle" comment came from this: or that Bonds, who is a bright man, likely did a background check on the writer, and determined that he was a greenhorn

Is Stix really suggesting that Bonds did a background check? And that the wily slugger talked only because Grann was a greenhorn?

As I said: pure crap.

[mrustow]

In the age of the Internet, a background check could be as simple as doing a google search. Grann himself mentions that in other cases, Bonds would let his cronies filter out requests from writers (e.g., George Will). And it's a simple matter of fact that Bonds abuses many writers. So, why did Bonds treat Grann so differently than he routinely treated other writers? Any writer worth his salt has to explain that.

You can't piss all over someone else's explanation, unless you can provide a better one. Otherwise, you're left standing there, with your own piss all over your shoes and pants.

[BluesDuke]

I stopped writing The Diamond District in July, because the hosting site (Blogspot.com) proved a pain in the ass - crashing about every three seconds whenever I tried to post up or edit a piece. So I moved to WebCrimson and now write and edit a new blogzine, The Polo Grounds: A Calm Review of Baseball. The hosting is far more user friendly and, like the other, I don't get paid but - since I want to be a baseball writer now that I've grown up - I need the clips. I haven't posted a new piece since last week because I've had a busy few days, but I plan to put up my own postmortem on the new collective bargaining agreement, and no small amount of the bull that was said leading up to it, by the weekend...

I have had the pleasure, by the way, of watching at least one baseball game in the following ballparks, too, over my lifetime: the Polo Grounds (in 1962, during the New York Mets' infant season and what a time that was...*snickering*), Shea Stadium, Yankee Stadium, Royals Stadium (now known as Kauffmann Stadium), Wrigley Field, Tiger Stadium (got there in 1998 while traveling around the country), Camden Yards (you may trust me on this one: everything that has ever been said about how beautiful is Camden Yards is true!), Edison Field (Anaheim; formerly the Big A), and Dodger Stadium. In terms of baseball watching, I have been blessed beyond belief to have watched baseball games in those parks.