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America's revenge: to turn tyrannies into democracies
The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 09/11/2002 | Michael Ledeen

Posted on 09/10/2002 4:18:52 PM PDT by Pokey78

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To: Pokey78
I think we created a monster ...:-)
21 posted on 09/10/2002 4:52:05 PM PDT by Dog
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To: Pokey78
I have to post a dissent to the ideas

(1)That you can impose Democracy on people.

(2) That it makes any idealistic or practical sense, to seek to impose Democracy on any people, where there are not certain ingredients, which make it likely to work.

(3)That imposing Democracy on people, who have demonstrated that they hate one another, is likely to engender either peace or good feeling in a region.

There are a lot of myths. And it seems to me that this writer, for all of his good points, has embraced some of the most fallacious. Put another way, did the "Democratic" election, in which Hitler's Nazi version of Socialism captured over 40% of the vote, pathing the way for his monolithic State, contribute to a peaceful solution to Europe's problems? Was he easier or harder to deal with than the Monarchy that had preceded the experiment in Democracy? Is there anything to suggest that the Iraqi, Syrians, Iranians, or for that matter, even the Israelis, have better political aptitudes than the Germans?

There are certain factors, which were in place in America at the beginning, which made popular Government work for a long time here, as well as it did. Do any of these writers who speculate on instilling Democracy in new places, even bother to study those factors, and seek to understand them? Do they seek to understand how Democracy worked in Switzerland--the one modern country that actually had a working Democracy, as opposed to our Republic?

Failure to even try to understand why certain systems work, and where they work, and why they fail and where they fail; reduces the whole approach to the equivalent of three year olds learning about fire by playing with matches.

To such approach, I must respectfully dissent.

William Flax Rerurn Of The Gods Web Site

22 posted on 09/10/2002 4:54:09 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Pokey78
Okay, Pokey. Add me too !
23 posted on 09/10/2002 4:56:41 PM PDT by MeekOneGOP
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To: Pokey78
Sure, good guy. Thanks.
24 posted on 09/10/2002 5:04:49 PM PDT by facedown
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To: Pokey78
"Lurking behind the awkward phrase 'regime change' is a vision of a war to destroy the Middle Eastern tyrannies and replace them with freer societies, as was done in Japan and Germany after the Second World War."
Yes. The replacement of Islamic theocracies with constitutional governments with guarantees of freedom of speech, religion, and the pursuit of happiness and protection of minority rights.

Nothing horrifies Muslims more that seperation of religion and state and the freedom of people to proselytize and convert to other religions--and there is nothing that they need more.

Nothing horrifies those who hide from truth more than truth!

"America's enemies sought to destroy it on September 11, only to find their own survival at mortal risk."
Yes. And if it were not for American forbearance they would not have survived at all; they would have found themselves vaporized into hell.
"There are many people who are more inclined to do evil than to do good, and the only way to deal with them is to dominate them."

25 posted on 09/10/2002 5:05:51 PM PDT by Savage Beast
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To: Pokey78
Yes, please put me on the ping list... thanks!
26 posted on 09/10/2002 5:07:38 PM PDT by myrabach
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To: Pokey78
Me too, please Pokey.
27 posted on 09/10/2002 5:11:40 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: Pokey78
Americans now believe, with Machiavelli, that there are many people who are more inclined to do evil than to do good, and the only way to deal with them is to dominate them.

First, please add me to the Ledeen ping list.

Second, it is amazing how much we have learned about Islam in the last year. They have an idiot cult, started by a caravan robber and pedeophile. There was nothing wrong with that, I guess, as long as they kept it to themselves, but no, here they came at us. And the BS about "moderate" Islam is just that, BS. This is what we have learned. They could have left the U.S. alone, but like wild donkeys they had to foolishly attack. And one year ago today, the vast majority of us didn't care squat about Islam. Now we do, and the stupid fanatics don't even realize what they took on. And all we're hearing from American Muslims is whining, not working to find Muslim terrorists in America.

28 posted on 09/10/2002 5:13:31 PM PDT by xJones
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To: Pokey78
If you're pinging, I'm there - add me to the list, please.

Thanks!

Tony

29 posted on 09/10/2002 5:14:45 PM PDT by TonyInOhio
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To: Pokey78
add me to the Ledeen ping list please/
30 posted on 09/10/2002 5:23:05 PM PDT by RobFromGa
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To: Dog; Pokey78
Quite right! Pokey, put me on your ping list for Ledeen, por favor.
31 posted on 09/10/2002 5:27:23 PM PDT by Notforprophet
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To: Pokey78
Please add me as well - thanks in advance.
32 posted on 09/10/2002 5:28:22 PM PDT by 11B3
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To: Pokey78
Put me on the Ledeen ping list, Pokey. How many am I on now...Noonan, Sullivan, Steyn....? LOL!
33 posted on 09/10/2002 5:34:45 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Ohioan
I respectfully disagree with your post. There are exceptions to ever rule and you have listed exceptions. IMHO, if all the dictators in the middle east were replaced tomorrow with free political systems, the world would be better off.

We would likely see a productive and prosperous Iran, similar to Turkey. I do not believe terrorism would have flourished and been protected as it was in Afganistan. It is possible Lebanon would once again be a popular tourist destination if released from the thumb of the brutal Assad regime. I could go on and on.

Sure there would be bumps along the way. Borders might even need to be changed as many were long ago determined by geographic lines as opposed to cultural. But I feel that all these people deserve to be free from tyrrany and I believe our great President and population feel the same. Of course he can't say it. Can you imagine the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth in the media if he did.

These regimes will fall, either under the weight of their people wanting freedom, the weight of US military might or maybe as the USSR did. But they will have to fall.

IN closing, I have a friend born and raised in the "moderate" state of Jordan. He is a successful small business owner and loves the USA as much as anyone I have ever known. He will not hesitate to tell someone complaining about the USA to count their blessings and count them everyday.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF FREEDOM!

34 posted on 09/10/2002 5:34:59 PM PDT by kissoldspot
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To: Pokey78
Sign me up, dude....
35 posted on 09/10/2002 5:36:21 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty
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To: Dog
Ledeen is an old-timer Freeper:
"MLedeen signed up 1998-05-17". And that's no fake screem name, he's the real deal.
36 posted on 09/10/2002 5:47:55 PM PDT by xJones
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To: xJones
Blast it, sreem = screen. Sheesh.
37 posted on 09/10/2002 5:49:23 PM PDT by xJones
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To: Dog
What is the ATRW thread?
38 posted on 09/10/2002 5:57:15 PM PDT by Aggie Mama
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To: Pokey78
Great, a Ledeen ping list. Please sign me up.
39 posted on 09/10/2002 6:10:04 PM PDT by jalisco555
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To: Pokey78
Thanks for the ping, Pokey and please add me to your ping list for Mr Ledeen.
40 posted on 09/10/2002 6:28:53 PM PDT by Darlin'
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