Women Believed to be members of Irish Travelers (Woman Taped Beating Child an "Irish Gypsy")

WNDU-TV, South Bend, Indiana ^ | September 20, 2002

[Shermy]

Some local authorities will not refer to Madelyn Gorman/Toogood and Margaret Daley as 'Travelers' but a local expert on Travelers says from the video he's seen, he believes the women are Irish Travelers. There are an estimated 12,000 to 20,000 Irish Travelers in the United States, mostly in South Carolina and Texas. This is where it is believed Gorman and her family is from.

Travelers live a nomadic lifestyle, moving from town to town in large groups to do seasonal work but they've also been labeled, by some, as scam artists. Most Irish Travelers in this country are descendents of 19th century Irish immigrants. They are also known as Irish gypsies or "tinkers".

Traveler expert

Elkhart resident Don Wright has been investigating the Travelers for 24 years. He's published books including one called 'Scam!'. Wright says many of these scams take place in our own backyard. Between April and October, there are between 15 to 20 families in the Michiana area running these scams. When Wright saw the Kohl's parking lot assault video, he knew this was more than just a case of child abuse.

After seeing the video, Traveler expert Don Wright says he called police and other Travelers and came to this conclusion. "I started making calls right away and found out, yes indeed, they were Irish Travelers."

Reasons behind the beating

Wright believes the beating happened for one of two reasons. "The little girl gave away the scam to an employee or the mom was so ticked off at not getting refunds she took it out on the little girl. As far as beating a kid like this, I've never heard of it."

Wright has heard of Travelers working in the Michiana area. He says certain things in the video lend him to believe these women are Travelers. "The fact that the license plate was from Texas - I knew who they were."

Why do they travel here?

Wright wrote about Travelers who travel from Fort Worth, Texas to Indiana in his 1996 book called 'Scam!' "A majority of the Travelers come to Elkhart a few times a year to pick up travel trailers they use for different scams." Wright says the trailer is a scam in and of itself. They live in it until they can sell it for an exorbitant price. Meanwhile, men of the Travelers do house scams and the women do shoplifting scams. Wright says it is common to take along their children. "This is on the job training for kids. They learn to shoplift at their mothers elbows."

Prosecutor Chris Toth said today that the reason Kohl's began to follow these two women and their daughters was because they had scammed the store before. Police in Fort Worth say in March they arrested Madelyn Gorman for an alleged theft at Kohls.

[Devil_Anse]

You are so right about the scam of engaging a person in conversation at their front door, or in their front yard, while the confederate sneaks in the back door.

A neighbor of mine was away. Her mother was staying at her house, and it was late morning. The mother and some other relative were puttering around, going in and out the doors, doing small chores in house and yard. Clearly this was a situation where anyone would think it was no big deal to leave the house doors unlocked. Some men came and engaged the mother and other relative in conversation, then a cohort of theirs quickly slipped in and took some very valuable items.

About a week later, in this same suburb, some gypsy men were caught in a break-in at night. The police were all over them, trying to talk to them, but one of the men claimed to speak only Russian, while the other claimed to speak only Polish (if I remember correctly.) The police managed to round up both a Russian speaker and a Polish speaker, in a matter of hours. (And we're nowhere near any concentrations of immigrants from these countries.) I always laughed to think how surprisingly quickly the police took away these men's excuse for "not being able" to talk to the police. Guess these gypsies then had to just rely on the old Fifth Amendment, like us peasants, if they didn't want to talk to police. These men turned out to be the same ones who had sneaked into my neighbor's house in broad daylight. Their surnames were clearly recognizable as gypsy surnames--though these were not of the "Irish Traveller" group.

You seem to have a good handle on some of the scams that are popular. Don't forget the "soft tissue injury" bit.
You're also correct on the fact that these things almost never come down to a trial. These folks are not about to wait around for a trial. If they are given bail, oftentimes they jump it immediately and are quite literally never seen again.

[dasboot]

Ah.....was that the Miller clan per chance?

I have no love in my heart for Roma or Tinkers or any Gypsy. I've had to deal with the wreckage these rascally thieves leave in their wake.

One incident in-particular stays with me:

I got a call to investigate a theft. It was a 90-ish year-old great-grandmother who lived alone in the run-down house in which she was born. A couple 'contractors' knocked and offered to re-roof her leaky porch for twenty dollars. While one guy surveyed the roof, the other disappeared. She knew something was up, but felt too intimidated by these big, fat bastards to say anything. The other guy came round front, and they said they had to go get some nails for the job.

While they were gone, the old gal searched and found that the bums had absconded with her life's savings of about $12,000: coffee can in the kitchen!!!

I got there while she was still waiting for them to come back. Poor thing: all she wanted to do was putter in her garden and live out her days in that old country home, using the cash to take care of the taxes and food that her small widow's benefit didn't cover. I held her in my arms as she sobbed; her last living child was in a nursing home, and she faced the grim prospect of going to one herself.

She could provide no worthwhile description of the men or the vehicle: she was nearly blind. I never got 'em.

A few months later I saw the house boarded-up, and the garden gone to seed. Still brings tears to my eyes thinkin' about it.

And that's why I hate Gypsies so: they pray on widows, the infirm, and the hapless , more trusting than is wise.

Then there was the travel agency from which they stole a shief of computerized airline tickets (they came in gang-style...asking lots of questions): about $60,000 worth, which the agency had to make good to the airline. That small business is no longer in business.

I hate 'em..I hate 'em...I hate 'em.

We cought two guys once; Mr Miller, the 'King', paid the complainant's damages and the bad guys were out, never to be seen again. Meantime I ran a III and print-check on them and got back about 20 different names, licenses in several different states....you get the picture. And that doesn't include the arrest records of states that don't report to the FBI database. These guys are so far under the radar, the courts can't deal with them. No one can say who the hell they really are! (Except a certain "Mr. Miller").

The only redeeming quality I can think of is that they don't crap in their own back yard, so to speak. They go to other states and countries to do that. So if you live next door, you're probably safe...from them...but certainly not their visiting business associates.

I got no use for 'em. They are among the most vile. And I understate.

[A. Pole]

The travelers' religious mythology has it that they have recieved dispensation from Christ to steal.

Yes, it what they say in Poland - the supposedly stole the nails so the executioners had problems with the Crucifiction. As a reward Christ was to grant them exemption from the commandment - "Thou shalt not steal".

If it were true, it is the obligation of Gajos to watch their wallets and if they don't that is their own fault.

[A. Pole]

These folks are not about to wait around for a trial.

They are very mobile and they change their identity (probably fake from the start) very quickly.

[A. Pole]

using the cash to take care of the taxes and food that her small widow's benefit didn't cover

TAXES!? Why does the government need to tax such old woman?

[dasboot]

Property tax.

[AnAmericanMother]

I read a lot (way too much in the opinion of my family). :-D Especially English/Scottish/Irish authors. Read Borrow awhile back, including a very interesting biography, but I'm up to my ears in Tony Trollope's works right now. (THERE's a difference for you - could give you whiplash!)

If you like Borrow, take a look at Donn Byrne. "Destiny Bay" is probably his most accessible book, and the gypsies come and go through the book. "Hangman's House" features the tinkers. All the books are set in the North of Ireland, which was Byrne's home.

Reading about the gypsies is a whole lot safer than dealing with them! I think you have to have an "in" with the tribe (or do somebody a serious, life-or-death favor), or you are fair game. Unfortunately they seem to scam the poor folks who can least afford to be swindled, not the middle or upper classes. (I guess they figure that the higher income folks will have the dogs out after them if they go there.)

[Devil_Anse]

Believe it or not, AM, they do sometimes go after the affluent. I mean, at least they regularly come into our metro area and target the most affluent of all our suburbs. The story of the elderly woman, that DasBoot told, should give anyone an idea of just how much they care about the misfortunes they bring to the unwary "gadjo"--they care exactly ZERO. Some may consider the attitude of DasBoot towards them to be harsh, but I don't think it is. Furthermore, the gypsies, tinkers, travellers, you name it--they all expect exactly that treatment from those who are on to them. It doesn't hurt their feelings in the least, IMO.

You said it best when you said: "Reading about the gypsies is a whole lot safer than dealing with them!" Absolutely the truth!

[GodsLittleOne]

you didn't read my second post did you?

[GodsLittleOne]

you didn't read my second post, did you?

[GodsLittleOne]

p.s. When I'm wrong...I usually admit it, and I did already.

[Devil_Anse]

I will check out Donn Byrne. I love reading about gypsies. Have you ever seen a book called Gypsy Idyll by Rowena Farr? This book has another name, and its author also has another name; I can't remember either alias, LOL! Anyway, it's yet another account by someone who went and lived on the road; it's quite good.

Guess what else? This woman, this Madelyne Gorman, a/k/a Madelyne Toogood, has now appeared on TV, "crying" about her little girl, but there were no tears coming from her eyes. I get the feeling that the little one is just fine, and is probably used to such goings on.

I hope, I mean, I really HOPE, that we don't now get a lot of people on cable TV buying into this mother's "grief." I mean, the mom was allegedly on a scam spree, trying to get a store to take back merchandise that it hadn't sold her. When you take your little kids along on such an expedition, to me that says that at least to some extent, you're only using the kiddies as props or shields.

[AnAmericanMother]

"A Time From the World" by Daphne Lois Macready. "Rowena Farre" was her pen name.

For reasons best known to itself, Johnson State College in Johnson, VT has a copy. Bit far for me to drive . . . :D

[A. Pole]

When you take your little kids along on such an expedition, to me that says that at least to some extent, you're only using the kiddies as props or shields.

Or maybe it means that your are smart enough not leave children closed in the car during the hot day? Or maybe it was a Gypsy "Take Your Daughter To Work Day"?

[Devil_Anse]

Or maybe it means that you are smart enough not to leave children closed in the car during the hot day? Or maybe it was a Gypsy "Take Your Daughter To Work Day?"

ROTFLMAO!!

Um...that second thing you said! I think you are exactly right. Also, in the article that Mr. Wright said it was "on the job training" for the little girl--and he's been studying these people for 24 years.

[cmsgop]

Bump to a great thread!

[wtc911]

Got your replies. Good for you. I am certain that in that position you yourself would never behave the way that woman did. We all say things sometimes that don't really reflect who we are. I know I am as guilty of this as anyone. Keep the faith....

[homeschool mama]

you have freepmail :o)

[Devil_Anse]

I finally saw Madelyne and her attorney, Rocket Rosen, in their dramatic performance, not sure which cable news channel. I can't imagine what strategy, if any, Rocket is employing in favor of his client. Even the cable channel interviewer person reeked of skepticism every time Madelyne opened her mouth. Good to see someone in the media who has some sense.

Earlier on this thread, someone posted something about how the Gypsies and Irish Travellers, when caught, just seek to settle the case as quickly as possible, pay restitution, take care of everything by throwing money at the problem--which I'm sure they can well afford. Then they continue on their merry way. Looks like that's what Madelyne and her lawyer must be doing here, too. She could easily take care of any piddling outstanding shoplifting warrants, but this business of having her child taken away--must be something of a setback, even for a pro like Madelyne!

She'll be granted visitation with her child, even if she doesn't get custody back right away. Probably the family court will insist that all visits btw Madelyne and little Martha be supervised, so that Madelyne doesn't do what she has surely considered: run off with the kid, never to be seen or heard from again.

I'll bet whoever they get to supervise Madelyne's visits with her daughter will either be in cahoots with Madelyne, or will be somehow hoodwinked by Madelyne and her family into letting down their guard, just long enough for Madelyne to escape with her child to that netherworld where she has about 5 or 6 identities.

[slane]

To call someone a tinker in Ireland is quite an insult - it is usually applied to a woman, and is like calling her a whore. The tinkers are notorious thieves and vagrants. They park their caravans in lay-bys and turn the surrounding area into a tip. In past years they were infamous for their shady horsetrading, and many of them still keep horses, usually piebald cobs known as 'tinker ponies', even though they now have motorised caravans. In recent years there has been a wave of political correctness and use of the term 'tinker' is akin to use of the 'N-word' in the States. I had no idea there were tinkers in the U.S.