Armageddon ahead, please fasten your Bible Belt

timesonline ^

[themorgoth]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, hat they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights...."

The Founders didn't have a single view on the subject. They had a range of personal views, and a range of views on the necessity or desirability of organized religion.

The one whose thoughts are best documented was Jefferson, and he didn't believe in a "Christian" God, and he didn't think that rights came directly from God. He would have endorsed the idea that rights are "natural" and that a Deist God had created nature at some unspecified past time.

The Declaration is a political document, not a credo of Enlightment metaphysics. The signers were aware that they would be considered to be rebelling against the Divine Right of the King, reinforced by the King's role as head of the Church of England.

The allosion to a "Creator" is a justification for claiming that rights inhere first in the individual and are not granted by governments (a very conservative viewpoint>. Indeed, the concept of rights is that they can't be taken away even when the government prevents their exercise, i.e. they are "inalienable". If you want to take the text seriously as meaningful, the choice of the word "Creator" suggests a god who makes the natural universe, and rights as deriving from natural human faculties of consciousness and responsibility.

The text doesn't say "Law-Giver", "God", or "Authority", which would be the choices if they wanted to make an endorsement of traditional Christian doctrine.

More realistically, political documents win more suupporters the less specific the language. The choice of "Creator" was one that Deists (Jefferson, Franklin, probably Washington and Madison) could support, while allowing the more conventional believers of the group to interpret it as the Christian God.

The Founders of the United States clearly wanted their personal religious beliefs to be irrelevant. The Constitution follows the fiction that it is an expression of "We, the people", not the members of the Convention. And it consistently uses the word "right" as something that belongs to individuals. Governments only have "powers".

Nowhere does it state or imply that "rights" come from God. The only mention of religion in the document is the explicit proscription of a religious test for public office. Most of the language is very general, providing industry for generations of judges and legal scholars.

But a curiously specific passage is the Presidential oath of office, which includes no reference to a Deity. The above words, of course, are from our documented stating our separation from your country. What is incomprehensible to you, is the background of our liberty. The rights that we enjoy are granted by God, not by government, and our faith in God helped us defeat the British in two wars.... In a word, fiddlesticks. One, in 1776 etc, it was Britons fighting Britons. In 1812 it was a draw.

Belief in a particular deity had nothing to do with it.

[ovrtaxt]

Mine too! (Well, the Silmarillion really, love the story about Fingolfin and Morgoth's battle)

I checked out your home page too. I'm into photography as well. Go to my home page and click on "Check out my work".

And I'm into astronomy too. Maybe we're 'astral twins'...but you'll have to get saved eventually... ; )

[2Trievers]

Record High 182 24 Sept 01 -- Record Low 57 12 Dec 93

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1,140 million per day since September 28, 2001!

2002 | Seven minutes to midnight

Little progress is made on global nuclear disarmament. The United States rejects a series of arms control treaties and announces it will withdraw from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. Terrorists seek to acquire and use nuclear and biological weapons.

Please send all contributions ICO "2T EYE-N-stein Fund" - a fund dedicated to studying the net effect of all doomsday scenerios, watching the sand in the hour glass, and studying the words of a hero on his deathbed who said, "In the end, only kindness matters." ... donations are not tax deductible ... accepting PayPal 24/7.

On life's journey faith is nourishment, virtuous deeds are a shelter, wisdom is the light by day and right mindfulness is the protection by night. If a man lives a pure life, nothing can destroy him. ~ Buddha

IN THE MEANTIME ... BE HAPPY!

[#3Fan]

Your reference for that?

Rev. 11:15

Your authority for saying that?

The word translated into clouds from the original manuscripts means spirit. Look it up.

Where does it say that?

Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven as it says in 1Cr 15:50

How do you arrive at that?

The very verse in her post.

Is this your opinion or are you privy to some revelation we don't know about?

It was in the verse she quoted.

You can believe what ever you want, but it's unadvisable to claim the Bible says something it doesn't.

Yes it is.

[ovrtaxt]

Hey, Bill, good to hear from you today. NoPardons checked out a while ago. I was winding up to unleash it on her too...

[spodefly]

In case of Rapture, can I have your car?

[Ready2go]

Hi themorgoth

themorgoth wrote: The one whose thoughts are best documented was Jefferson, and he didn't believe in a "Christian" God, and he didn't think that rights came directly from God. He would have endorsed the idea that rights are "natural" and that a Deist God had created nature at some unspecified past time.

Thomas Jefferson believed in Jesus...themorgoth...so much so that he wrote his own Bible.

The Jefferson Bible
The Life and Morals of Jesus

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

[nightdriver]

Well, keep on reading. I don't think you are interpreting it correctly. When you snatch things out of context like that, you can "prove" most anything.

[#3Fan]

In case of Rapture, can I have your car?

There is no rapture.

[#3Fan]

Well, keep on reading. I don't think you are interpreting it correctly. When you snatch things out of context like that, you can "prove" most anything.

What did I snatch out of context?

[AdA$tra]

And there is no rapture.

It is a fictional creation of post-calvinist Protestants. There is no doctrine for rapture in the Bible.

[#3Fan]

It is a fictional creation of post-calvinist Protestants. There is no doctrine for rapture in the Bible.

They misinterpret the seventh trump as the rapture.

[themorgoth]

And you will notice that there are major theological differences between his bible and other bibles...

[themorgoth]

And I'm into astronomy too.

Fantastic isn't it?

Maybe we're 'astral twins'...but you'll have to get saved eventually... ; )

Sorry old chap - been there, done that. Didn't work for me. Am happy with my new path.

Best
themorgoth

[AdA$tra]

This picture of Morgoth sums
up your spirituality quite nicely!

[AdA$tra]

Which god?

More lovely Morgoth goodies
here^.

[Ready2go]

1 Th 4:13 And now, dear brothers, I want you to know what happens to a Christian when he dies so that when it happens, you will not be full of sorrow, as those are who have no hope.

1 Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and then came back to life again, we can also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him all the Christians who have died.

1 Th 4:15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord.

1 Th 4:17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.

1 Th 4:18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.

1 Cor 15:51 But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!

1 Cor 15:52 It will all happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For there will be a trumpet blast from the sky, and all the Christians who have died will suddenly become alive, with new bodies that will never, never die; and then we who are still alive shall suddenly have new bodies too.

1 Cor 15:53 For our earthly bodies, the ones we have now that can die, must be transformed into heavenly bodies that cannot perish but will live forever.

1 Cor 15:54 When this happens, then at last this Scripture will come true-- "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where then your victory? Where then your sting? For sin--the sting that causes death--will all be gone; and the law, which reveals our sins, will no longer be our judge.

[spodefly]

In case of Rapture, can I have your car?

There is no rapture.

I keep seeing all these bumper stickers that say "In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned." ... So your saying, no free cars then, huh? ... Bummer ...

[freebilly]

.... In a word, fiddlesticks. One, in 1776 etc, it was Britons fighting Britons. In 1812 it was a draw.

In 1776 this country fought to prove we weren't British.

If you think the War of 1812 was a draw, you need to do more than read the Treaty of Ghent. News of the Treaty never reached the combatants in New Orleans where the British suffered more than 2000 casualties while the Americans suffered 8 killed and 13 wounded. Anymore draws like that and England would have become an American State....

[AdA$tra]

The USA was never and is not, a Christian Nation.

Ever been to the Colonies, Morgoth?