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Israel Tells the U.S. It Will Retaliate if Attacked by Iraq
The New York Times ^ | 9/21/2002 | Michael R. Gordon

Posted on 09/21/2002 3:02:55 PM PDT by ex-Texan

Israel Tells the U.S. It Will Retaliate if Attacked by Iraq

By MICHAEL R. GORDON

JERUSALEM, Sept. 21 — Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has informed the Bush administration that he plans to strike back if Iraq attacks Israel, according to Israeli and Western officials.

Mr. Sharon's statements, made privately to senior American officials in recent weeks, represent a major shift in Israeli thinking since the 1991 Persian Gulf war, when 39 Iraqi Scud missiles struck without any Israeli response.

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The prime minister's position reflects a widespread belief among Israeli politicians and generals that Arab leaders perceived Israel's restraint in 1991 as weakness. Throughout his military and political career, Mr. Sharon has always held that any attack on Israel must be promptly and powerfully punished.

"I don't think there is a scenario in which Israel will get hit and not strike back," a senior Western official said. "I think the evolving strategy will be commensurate response."

Mr. Sharon's position has significant implications for the Pentagon, which fears that an Israeli entry would stir up Arab public opinion and make it harder for the Pentagon to maintain cooperation from the Arab states where Washington hopes to base American forces

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(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: israel; willretaliate
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To: El Gato
"then we couldn't tell the difference between Israeli airplanes and Iraqi ones, except if we see them take off"

Iraqi doesn't have any airplanes (anymore)... Just 3 kites and 2 hot air ballons.

151 posted on 09/21/2002 9:16:58 PM PDT by babygene
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To: bonesmccoy
It should be obvious that Israel is incapable of coalition building.

Please explain why this is militarily important (besides to talking heads on TV). Why should a nation under attack of arms care about what other people think? As I recall, France didn't help a young nation until General George proved that we would kick butt. Franklin didn't make much progress at coalition building until we PROVED that we would make it.

/john

152 posted on 09/21/2002 9:18:04 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: avenir
yes, that's correct. Prevailing winds from Iraq are an interesting study.

Yahoo reports a high temperature of 105+ with lows in the 76 range.

Prevailing winds seem to blow towards Iran, Afghanistan, and the central asian states. Some fallout would hit Pakistan, India, China and Bangladesh. So, this local use of nuclear weapons ends up polluting a few billion people.


153 posted on 09/21/2002 9:23:28 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
"Like ten years ago, an international coalition which aligns the interests of Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait is possible. "

Any coalition that includes ANY Islamic country is phony. Sooner or later we will figure out that it is Islam that is the enemy. Saudi Arabia, in my opinion, should be taken out before Iraq.

154 posted on 09/21/2002 9:26:06 PM PDT by babygene
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To: JRandomFreeper
As I recall, France didn't help a young nation until General George proved that we would kick butt. Franklin didn't make much progress at coalition building until we PROVED that we would make it.

Of course. Who would bet on an untried horse?

French support for the American revolution was not an exercise in altruism. It was more like, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

France was at war with England. Supporting the Rebel Colonists was in French self-interest.

155 posted on 09/21/2002 9:26:12 PM PDT by LibKill
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To: JRandomFreeper
In case you hadn't noticed, Sept. 11 2001 was done by Saudi's who came to America to do us injury and harm. Sept. 11 is a triggering event, but it is really besides the point. This thread was focusing on Israel's responsiveness to an Iraqi hit. While I agree that all nations have a right to respond to a military attack, the problem is how much Israel damages the end-game created by a victorious US. Israel will hurt itself more by interfering with the US lead coalition.
156 posted on 09/21/2002 9:26:53 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: babygene
You're dead wrong. Islam is not the enemy. Dictatorship is. Religious regimes are not the norm in the middle east. They are only a reflection of the economics and existing politics. This is a great opportunity to change such. Your racist rhetoric reminds me of the race baiting and phoney excuses of lies during the second world war with respect to the war between Japan and the US. US media characterized the Japanese as louses, monkeys, devils, etc. It is such tired and wornout rhetoric that I am surprised people are still attempting such sweeping villification of racial groups.
157 posted on 09/21/2002 9:29:27 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: Rye
They'll launch and self-destruct just after launch in a continuing cycle of not quite defending theirselves.

Æ

158 posted on 09/21/2002 9:32:21 PM PDT by AgentEcho
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To: JRandomFreeper
Military struggle is only one element. Only short sighted people think the war is the ends. The reality is that war is only one token in a larger poker game.

Regarding your recollection of the American revolution, the analogy is weak and irrelevant to discussion of Israel's response to an Iraqi strike.

159 posted on 09/21/2002 9:34:10 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: LibKill
Who would bet on an untried horse?

Exactly. Israel proved that they could kick butt during the 6 days war. What was the number of the armies arrayed against her? Millions of troops. On paper, anyway.

Israel has the right and the obligation to retaliate against anyone that either threatens or causes her harm. Period. Just like we do. Just like Kuwait does.

/john

160 posted on 09/21/2002 9:36:33 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: bonesmccoy
"If one million Chinese troops came across the Yalu, do you seriously believe that 50,000 US troops could stop the onslaught?"

Yes, there is no way to hide 1,000,000 troops nowadays. We would be fully prepared. They would have to swim across.
161 posted on 09/21/2002 9:40:54 PM PDT by VeaVictis
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To: bonesmccoy
Please explain why coalition building is important.

War does decide things. If you don't believe me, ask the citizens of Carthage.

/john

162 posted on 09/21/2002 9:41:21 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: JRandomFreeper
Kuwait couldn't do jack without US forces. In addition, your analysis is also flawed because you don't understand where the actual nations originated. Do you feel that just because a person draws a line on a diplomatic map and creates a new nation that a new moral imperative exists?
163 posted on 09/21/2002 9:41:29 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
"Your racist rhetoric"

Don't be silly... Islam is not a race. Nore is it a religion.

164 posted on 09/21/2002 9:46:35 PM PDT by babygene
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To: JRandomFreeper
You are discussing the primary combatants. I am discussing the secondary ramifications of the conflict. Israel appears to want to become a primary combatant. That is silly for Israel to do when the United States, Russia, UK, and, for pete's sake, even the Japanese are participating in the coalition.

While Iraq is paying for the intifada, the reality is that it is the United States who will "decide things".

Coalition development is crucial to the post-war politics. If you don't believe me, ask the people who live in the nations of the former Warsaw Pact.

165 posted on 09/21/2002 9:47:55 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: babygene
Oh please... stop with your racist bigotry...it's totally unAmerican! End of our conversation.
166 posted on 09/21/2002 9:48:37 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: VeaVictis
An interesting point. It suggests that the injection of PLA troops into the Korean conflict could have been handled differently if MacArthur had better recon. Is it correct to believe that Mac had no forewarning of PLA forces aligned against him? He certainly wanted to go across the Yalu.
167 posted on 09/21/2002 9:51:39 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
In addition, your analysis is also flawed because you don't understand where the actual nations originated.

In a drawing room in Great Britan? Duh. And the lines have had time (a generation, at least) to solidify.

My analysis is NOT flawed in the point of a nation, regardless of the accident of it's birth, has the right to defend itself against naked aggression. Period.

/john

168 posted on 09/21/2002 9:55:05 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: bonesmccoy
Do you work at State? You seem to have the skills to obfuscate the obvious. Just a moment of professional admiration. No insult intended.

/john

169 posted on 09/21/2002 9:57:08 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: bonesmccoy
"Oh please... stop with your racist bigotry"

If I were racist, why would I support Israel? Do not the Arabs and the Israelis share the same race? The Islamic “religion” preaches hate, worships a false god, and is more of a government than a religion (no matter what race they are from).

Is it your policy to call people who disagree with you “racist”? It has nothing to do with race… It has to do with their politics.

170 posted on 09/21/2002 10:03:51 PM PDT by babygene
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To: bonesmccoy
Not even close - you were asked to back up your claim about Israel's stated "official policy". Where in this article is that stated.
171 posted on 09/21/2002 10:05:13 PM PDT by anapikoros
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To: JRandomFreeper
if this is the case, how do define who's boundary to believe? Do you assert that a line drawn by a Brit is better than one drawn by an American?
172 posted on 09/21/2002 10:05:14 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: anapikoros
I went looking for the policy statement. I think it was said on Fox News during the last week of August, but I can't find any text. Perhaps the speaker was talking without backing it with a written position statement or press release. Who knows. If Israel keeps to it's previous stance, then I got no problem with it.
173 posted on 09/21/2002 10:07:07 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: babygene
The ethnic origins of the Jewry is so far from the topic matter that it is laughable. This is a sure sign that you have lost your argument!

Islam does not preach hate. I have had friends who were Jewish and friends who were Muslim. I've never heard one guy say that he hates the other. We're all Americans.

I'm sick and tired of the race baiting and racial hatred. Give it up... the worm don't squirm and toad don't croak!

174 posted on 09/21/2002 10:10:11 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
Do you assert that a line drawn by a Brit is better than one drawn by an American?

They were not our colonies to decide the lines. The Brits beat them, and ruled them, fair and square. You see, the middle east has been a bunch of losers for a long, long, time. Otherwise, they would be the folks drawing the lines. But that's just a dream, left over from the 14th century.

/john

175 posted on 09/21/2002 10:15:52 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: JRandomFreeper
Do I work at State?

No....ahem... but I know lots of people familiar with McLean, VA!

How's Tyson's Corner these days Virginian's???

LOL

The US modern military is a projection of our economic might. The fact we can field an offensive force is related to our need to project power more than hide behind walls. The reason 9-11 is such a devastating psychological blow to some others is that they felt very secure behind the ocean's distance.

These same people were the ones blowing their saxophones so loudly during the 1990's and who failed to properly defend America's interests.

Once again, the military is acting to project our strength in order to take the front lines away from America and into the home of our enemy. So, we are the primary combatants in this battle, not Israel. The ones really obfuscating things are the Israeli's.

While I am aware that the intifada is a perceived threat to Israeli security, it does not really threaten the IDF's stability. The intifada really seems more of a lawless uprising of criminals than a real military threat.

With this in mind, separating the combatants of the Intifada from the Iraqi or Iranian regimes is skillful. In a military sense, it separates the field troops from the supply lines. The US is attacking the body of the snake. The IDF is attacking the head.

Separating the two theatres/fronts seems reasonable. Thanks for serving our nation...

176 posted on 09/21/2002 10:18:57 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: JRandomFreeper
well, there's not much to argue with there. You are correct about your assessment, with the exception of the oil. That's why we need a strong force in Asia.

I still think we need to push for US-Russian joint oil exploration in Siberia and then bring the Japanese into the picture as consumers.

If we can ram up the Japanese economy and flush the funds back out through oil purchases by the Japanese, we all win.

177 posted on 09/21/2002 10:21:44 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
with the exception of the oil

We have more oil in and around the US than we can use in a generation. Access to it is blocked by internal enemies to the US; mainly the watermelons: green on the outside, red on the inside. All that is required to defeat them is the truth.

Night all. I retire from the field for the night.

/john

178 posted on 09/21/2002 10:31:14 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: JRandomFreeper
I prefer seedless watermelons.

ANWAR should have been opened, but the international politic of doing joint US-Russian oil exploration in Siberia could help things.

Thanks for the great conversation.

179 posted on 09/21/2002 10:44:29 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
The right to self defense is the most basic right. Israel has it politics aside.
180 posted on 09/22/2002 2:06:10 AM PDT by weikel
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To: babygene
Islam does preach hate your friends just weren't serious Muslims. Either that or they were lying and using you.
181 posted on 09/22/2002 2:07:29 AM PDT by weikel
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To: babygene
Islam is the worlds biggest religion, I have a new idea for you. Why don`t we trust GWB and his advisors handle this and, maybe our role should be to give them our total support
182 posted on 09/22/2002 2:45:18 AM PDT by bybybill
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To: bonesmccoy
Israel is not a major player.

Our lone ally in a highly unstable region...
a member of the nuclear club...
a nation that has survived repeated multilateral military surprise attacks...
a nation that is the subject of 30% of all UN resolutions...
a top-notch intelligence agency (possibly the best in the world)...

MAN, you're a tough grader! Just what does it take to be a "major player" in your book?

183 posted on 09/22/2002 5:55:38 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: weikel
That's a pretty shallow interpretation of this thread. The point of the thread focused on the best strategy for Israel. It is not in Israel's long-term interest to interfere with US-led coalition military activity.

And, no, I do not agree with your statement regarding the right to defense. The question is a moral one. If a nation's leadership is a military dictatorship and is not elected, does that leadership have justification to order "retalliation" hits? I believe that same claim was made by Hitler's troops in the invasion of Poland!

It is easy to say that a nation has the right of self-defense, but it is difficult to implement such international law and it is even more difficult to distinguish what is really a "preemptive strike" vs. "retalliation".

A counterstrike, especially a nuclear one, launched by Israel will not help the Israelies. In the long term, it damages their legitimacy.

184 posted on 09/22/2002 7:16:20 AM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: Teacher317
You're right I am. There is no doubt that Israel has been a friend of the US in the mideast. The thread moved into a discussion of who "major" nations were.

In thinking about who the leading players really are, nuclear weapons are not totally the issue. Otherwise, Pakistan would be on the Security Council.

Really, I think a major nation is a democratic republic, has control of the military under civilian leadership, and is capable of self-sustained economic growth.

I feel that military strength is only an indicator of relative economic productivity. Comparing the size of armies, navies, and air forces is instructive. In this thread, a poster suggested that the IDF was the third strongest force on Earth. I disagreed because in various categories you could locate many stronger forces.

This view suggests that foreign policy should be focused on priorities related to "major" nations first. The G-8 are major nations because they have economic leverage that Israel does not.

The only major nation that is not in the G-8 is China. If China were a democratic republic and control of the PLA under elected civilians, then the picture would be complete.

185 posted on 09/22/2002 7:28:54 AM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: bonesmccoy
It's probably top 10, but Russia, the US, and NATO could probably out class IDF. The Chinese Red Army would probably roll over Israel in a few minutes.

If they could get there, which they couldn't. It used to be said that the PLA could overrun anyone in a conventional battle, if they could walk there. Only now are they begining to get the sealift to be able to invade Taiwan, a much less tough nut to crack than Israel. The same is true, although less so, of Russian and most NATO forces. The Israelies are a major player in the region, which all that matters to them, and for purposes of the current topic, to us too. The Israeli military is as well trained than any in the world, including the US. Their reserves are probably better trained and are certainly larger in proportion to their overall forces, than ours. Like Switzerland, Israel doesn't so much have an army as it IS an army. We'd be that way too, if we were surrounded by enemies with larger populations, that have tried, and still want, to wipe us out.

186 posted on 09/22/2002 8:38:02 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
I've been asking for them for years?

OK, enough talking with you.
187 posted on 09/22/2002 8:59:31 AM PDT by Joseph_CutlerUSA
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To: ex-Texan
IDF bttt
188 posted on 09/22/2002 9:56:07 AM PDT by lodwick
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Comment #189 Removed by Moderator

Comment #190 Removed by Moderator

Comment #191 Removed by Moderator

To: hapsgroupie
Does anyone know if there is a draft for the Isreali army? And if so, how old does one have to be to be drafted?

Yes, they have a draft, a universal one, with some exeptions, mainly religious objections. They also draft both sexes, but IIRC married women don't get drafted. About 1/5 of men and 1/4 of women do not serve for various reasons.(about 1/2 of the men for religious reasons, the others for medical reasons, or such reasons as being out of the country) Draft is, I think, 18 for both sexes, any event most enter the army (technically the IDF)

Men serve in the IDF for three years, women for one year and nine months, but that's only active service, reserve service is much longer. Officers have served as enlisted draftees before becoming officers. They've called up signifigent numbers of reserves in the last year plus, but then so have we.

192 posted on 09/22/2002 11:25:03 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
What does that story have to do with Iraq?

Maybe nothing, directly anyway. However it has everything do with Arafat and you said "who cares about Arafat" and "I'm an American". I was just pointing out that Arafat's minions have killed Americans, even outside of Israel. The Achili Lauro incident is hardly the only such incident either.

193 posted on 09/22/2002 12:04:32 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
Religious regimes are not the norm in the middle east.

Historically they are more common than not, and until recently at least, the tide was running in that direction. Even those not explicity theocratic have a strong Muslim religious influence, from Saudi to Egypt and even to Pakistan and all the little stans, as well as some of the north African states. In most it is an anti western influence.

194 posted on 09/22/2002 12:27:10 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: babygene
Don't be silly... Islam is not a race. Nore is it a religion.

Actually it is a religion, but its an ideology too. Parts of it are just plain evil, others fairly benign. The worst form originates in Saudi Arabia, and is spreading like an STD, only it's being done deliberately.

195 posted on 09/22/2002 12:34:21 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
Israel appears to want to become a primary combatant.

I don't think so. Rather they don't want to, but feel the way to insure that they don't is to make sure Saddam understands that if he involves them, they will jump in with both boots. War is more like rape than consensual sex or dancing, it doesn't necessarily take two willing parties to tango.

196 posted on 09/22/2002 12:37:43 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: JRandomFreeper
In a drawing room in Great Britan? Duh

Actually more in British controlled Egypt, India and to a lessor extent in Great Britain itself. It was mostly the overseas British that drew the modern map of the middle east in the years following WW-I. They messed up big time, that's for sure.

197 posted on 09/22/2002 12:40:36 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
Islam does not preach hate.

That's like saying all Christians do not preach full emersion baptism of adults. Some branches of Islam clearly do preach hate. The version brewed up in Saudi Arabia, Wahabism (SIC) and exported to other places in and outside the middle east clearly does preach hate for Jews, and in some cases Christians and pretty much everybody not Muslim, regardless of Koranic instructions to respect the "people of the Book". Christianity had and has such sects too, but not many of late, and those control insignifigent numbers. The Saudi devolved version probalby wouldn't either if not for all that oil money. That version also preaches hate, or at least fear and loathing, of half the human race.

198 posted on 09/22/2002 12:48:22 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
The US modern military is a projection of our economic might.

I wish it were. If we spent 2/3 as large a fraction of our total wealth on our military now as we did, say in the mid 1950s, we'd have such a force that we wouldn't be debating this topic, the show would already be over. There wouldn't have been any need to ramp up production of guided weapons, we'd have had plenty in the armory already. But America has always thought it could defend itself on the cheap. Still better than the Eurowienies who don't think they should defend themselves at all, for the most part.

199 posted on 09/22/2002 12:54:13 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: bonesmccoy
Is it correct to believe that Mac had no forewarning of PLA forces aligned against him?

No, he had some forewarning, he just didn't want to believe it, even after the PLA came accross the Yalu and we started taking Chinese prisoners.

200 posted on 09/22/2002 12:56:35 PM PDT by El Gato
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