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Is the American empire already over?
The Globe and Mail ^ | 5 October 2002 | Doug Saunders

Posted on 10/08/2002 12:10:32 AM PDT by Greybird

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Until the turn of the century I always gave the vigor and dominance of the American empire about another 20 years -- quickly gained and, in an age that's had Industrial and Electronic Revolutions, quickly lost. Unlike, say, Britain or Rome.

Now I wonder if it'll last the decade. Especially since we'll be occupying the Mideast for that decade. Against protests, I offer three words as counterargument: Germany, Japan, Korea. The legions haven't come home, and at this rate, they never will -- voluntarily. Afghanistan is well on its way to joining them on the list of might-as-well-be-permanent garrisons. Next year, Iraq.

1 posted on 10/08/2002 12:10:32 AM PDT by Greybird
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To: Greybird
Germany, Japan, Korea, Afghanistan, then Iraq.

You left some others off the list, but you make a good point.

Cindye
2 posted on 10/08/2002 12:12:47 AM PDT by OfByForThePeople
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To: Greybird
The legions haven't come home, and at this rate, they never will -- voluntarily. Afghanistan is well on its way to joining them on the list of might-as-well-be-permanent garrisons. Next year, Iraq.

You forgot Germany and Japan.

3 posted on 10/08/2002 12:13:40 AM PDT by The Great Satan
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To: Greybird
No, the author is obviously leaning way left. Using university "scholars" as the source for a screed like this is the sure sign of it. There isn't a conservative scholar vested in any of the leftist universities - Ivy league or not. They are simply the left's bastion, plain and simple.

America is only now becoming the 'empire' that our wannabe Euros to the north are talking about. Driving the stake through the heart of the UN is only a start - as is Iraq. There are going to be other temporary destinations in the War on Terrorism, some close by and others far away. China and Cuba come to mind.

Militarily, this author is obviously a Canadian. Few NATO nations make France look like a military juggernaut, either in attitude or hardware, but Canada does. The chances for a 'protracted war' in Iraq are about equal to that of the DemonRats obeying election laws. Doom and gloom using the reality challenged left as the source gives this one a 'Dry Heaves Alert'. No offense, Greybird, but I can understand your agreement with this one. Post anything positive about the US lately?

4 posted on 10/08/2002 12:38:35 AM PDT by 11B3
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To: The Great Satan
Afghanistan will not last for the decade. Iraq will exhaust any pretense of imperialism. The economy will force us to capitulate on empire building.
5 posted on 10/08/2002 12:39:36 AM PDT by meenie
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To: meenie
The United States has not the slightest interest in empire-building. This is a pathetic jerk-off fantasy of a few morons on the left and the losertarian right, with no existential basis whatsoever.
6 posted on 10/08/2002 12:41:24 AM PDT by The Great Satan
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To: Greybird
Yes, the liberals and socialists are eventually going to pull us down into such moral degeneracy that God will no longer protect us.

But not on this watch.

Sodom only needed to find ten righteous men in order to survive. When "America" gets to that point, when there are no longer ten righteous men left, we won't be here and we won't care that the time has come, because it won't be America any longer.

It is our duty in this time to work to prevent that.

7 posted on 10/08/2002 1:18:27 AM PDT by patriciaruth
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: IllegalAliensOUT
we haven't been a Republic as the founders intended since 1861

You know, it's possible that what the founders intended is not what God intended when He brought forth this nation.

9 posted on 10/08/2002 2:10:23 AM PDT by patriciaruth
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Greybird
This article is closer to being right than I know I want to admit. The last major military bill up was when Regan did it. In the past after each time the democrats where in office we would always have a good build up when the republicans took office. Eight ywers of neglect with clinton left us just a shadow of the armed forces we had. We have been declining since the sixties.

When we ordered the B-52 we ordered 600. The B-1 we had 76 and we just moth- balled half of them in the last six months. When we ordered The B-2 we where going to get 60 I believe, we cancelled half because of cost and ended up with 30. When Regan took office we had about 70 over sea military bases now I believe we are down to just 15.

We use to have an active Army for each section of the country four of them. Now we just have one active and half of it is made up of reserves. Our Navy fleet was reuduced by at least one-third in just 8 years of Clinton. I know we have good technology but most of our military planes are 30 years old and you can only recondition and update the same frames so many times.

Am I saying we are washed up, not hardly we still have the most powerful military in the world. But we are just a shadow of what we where even in the gulf war.The doctrine that we have to be able to fight two seperate wars has been done away with and while we are under a republican president.

When GW took office I expected a big build up and I think so did he. Then I heard we need to wait and do a study and then I heard we need a new type of military that is leaner ,lighter and more mobile. Sure we need to modernize but what I also afraid it means is we can no longer afford a large one. How can we when 2 of those B-2's cost us more than all 600 of the B-52's?

11 posted on 10/08/2002 2:42:52 AM PDT by mississippi red-neck
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To: Greybird; Poohbah; dighton; BlueLancer
"The United States has been fading as a global power since the 1970s, and the U.S. response to the terrorist attacks has merely accelerated this decline." So says Immanuel Wallerstein, the Yale University political scientist who is by far the most outspoken member of this camp. A gravelly old contrarian with little time for the orthodoxies of the left or the right...

Bullshit. Wallerstein is a socialist, through and through - apparently having a new spin on socialism is enough to make you an independent-minded centrist in the eyes of the Globe and Mail. Which is, in turn, enough to reveal the worthlessness of this article - if the only people who can be found discussing the downfall of the US are the same people who have been (incorrectly) predicting it since the early 1970's, there's no particular reason to believe they're correct now, is there?

Wallerstein ought to title his next work "Still Wrong After All These Years"...

12 posted on 10/08/2002 2:48:43 AM PDT by general_re
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To: patriciaruth
Sodom only needed to find ten righteous men in order to survive. When "America" gets to that point, when there are no longer ten righteous men left, we won't be here and we won't care that the time has come, because it won't be America any longer.

Sodom couldn't have had a population of more than a few thousand, if that. The US has what now? 350,000,000? I don't think there's any particular significance to the number ten other than in the specific case. Not ten righteous out of 350,000,000? Don't be silly.

I also don't think we're under any special protection as a country in the first place. More a question of actions having consequences.

13 posted on 10/08/2002 3:14:58 AM PDT by Salman
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To: Greybird
On a post here the other day (which I can't find at the moment) I read the claim that, while the US spends 30% of the world's total on military expenditures, it spends 80% of the world's total on military research and development. The author's point, I believe, was that we are ahead of everyone else and, due to that R&D, pulling away. How does that fit in with "America in Decline"?
14 posted on 10/08/2002 3:27:27 AM PDT by Stirner
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To: Greybird
Let me offer you a new way of thinking about America: Over.

He's just jealous. Somebody give him some Kleenex.

15 posted on 10/08/2002 3:29:13 AM PDT by mhking
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To: The Great Satan
TheUS has troops in 144 countries, and now we're going to
conquer most of the Middle East. We're an empire, and empires always fall. Get a clue.
16 posted on 10/08/2002 3:46:26 AM PDT by Trickyguy
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To: Stirner
The author's point, I believe, was that we are ahead of everyone else and, due to that R&D, pulling away.

Britain thought that General Kitchener's use of the Maxim machine gun to slaughter the Sudanese put them on top, as well. That and a host of other innovations, such as in shipbuilding, were still not enough to preserve its empire.

One item that the article I posted doesn't mention is the worldwide transparency of scientific discovery. Almost none of that U.S.-financed military research is under absolute wraps, without discussion of basic science supporting it and much of the technology that results. (The last such notably successful example of secrecy, I'd say, was the A-bomb's Manhattan Project.)

What the controversy over Clinton's disgraceful leaking of U.S.-taxpayer-funded research to the Chinese ignored was that this accelerated what would have happened eventually. That certainly doesn't excuse it -- but the U.S. government wouldn't be the first world power to underestimate the power of the diffusion of research through the worldwide scientific community. Britain certainly did.

17 posted on 10/08/2002 3:54:29 AM PDT by Greybird
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To: 11B3
Post anything positive about the US lately?

Every decent man, as Mencken said, is ashamed of the government he lives under. I extend that in equal opportunity to both halves of the statists whom we allow to rule us. Disgusting spectacles such as today's California gubernatorial debate -- Davis's slimy tyranny versus Simon's earnest tyranny-lite -- don't give me any reason to stop.

18 posted on 10/08/2002 3:58:38 AM PDT by Greybird
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To: Greybird
Also posted on Lew Rockwell dot Com.
19 posted on 10/08/2002 4:00:53 AM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: DugwayDuke; dighton; Orual; aculeus; general_re; Poohbah
"Also posted on Lew Rockwell dot Com."

That figures ... and then it slithered over here.

20 posted on 10/08/2002 4:06:28 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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