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Bush says does not support independence for
Taiwan -(Bush Shafts Taiwan, mine)
Reuters ^
| 10-26-02
Posted on 10/26/2002 12:37:58 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: soccer8
Hahaha, the thing though is that everything keeps going my way. Unlike China, Third World republics keep needing one IMF bailout after another, electing anti-capitalist leaders (Brazil), losing foreign investment dollars, etc. The only topic even the pro-independence Taipei Times can talk about today is how crappy Taiwan's economy has become. If even that rag can start paying attention to Taiwan's dire economic situation, maybe there is still hope for you, maui_hawaii, and others too. In addition, this year China will become the #1 destination of foreign direct invesment ahead of even the U.S. and GE's CEO recently overtly said the he much favored investing in China than in India or most other Third World republics (democratic economic basketcases).
To: formosaplastics
See 254. C ya!
To: BillCompton
The Proposition is that there are people in these administrations who favor recognizing Taiwan. I say there aren't, you say there are. Since I agreed to your deal, you should now provide the name of one person in either administration who favors it. You don't even have to provide proof, just a name. Hi Bill.
John Bolton has written op-eds on this. Here's one
Of course from the earlier Bush's adminsitration John Lilley wrote the op-ed, "Taiwan is a State, Get Over It."
There is a common denominator between Lilley and Bolton, which is AEI.
Arthur Waldron at AEI wrote a great article along these lines for Policy Review not too lon ago.
That is what is so disapointing and foolish about Bush's comment the other day. It was so unnecesaary and will only be harmful to our interests. We won't get anything out of it.
The viewpoint presented by many, we can call the AEI view but it goes well beyond just AEI, is a much netter way to go.
Bush let the Associates strange anachronistic world view (and that is being very nice to them) win out. Huge mistake on his part.
If he wanted to say what he did he should have gone with Armitage and added, neither do we oppose Taiwan's independence.
As it is Bush looks like either a fool or a sycophant. (And he normally is neither).
Jiang Zemin showed up late, never answered any question specifically, except with smug double talk and laughed about it.
As per our deal, feel free to send me private mail here.
It is best you don't aprticipate in a public forum, I'm sure you can agree.
After a fair amount of tutelage, I may give you the OK.
To: tallhappy
Your problem is that you actually think Taiwan represents the center of America's foreign policy universe. Taiwan is just a pimple on America's ass. The average American doesn't even know where the hell Taiwan is and the amount of time the average American thinks about Taiwan during an entire year is about 10 seconds. On the other hand, most Americans are concerned about their economy, for which China plays an increasingly important role. China has replaced Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. as the source of cheap goods for American consumers for decades to come. China is the biggest "tax cut" for US consumers imaginable. China helps keep America's inflation low, American families' purchasing power high, and maintains Americans' world-highest standard of living. No US politician is going to sacrifice America's economy over the next several decades for Taiwan's democracy, which is a legislative mess 99% of the time anyway where people engage more in fistfights and dragging people by the hair on TV more than passing laws. Watching Taiwan's legislature is like watching the World Wrestling Federation but with Asians.
To: Edmund Burke
That's what bugs me.
Cuba, bad. China, ok.
Iraq, bad. Iran, ok.
What's the damn differences from a point of principle?
Because we can rattle-sabre weak sisters and not the more serious players?
Why isn't Red China, sworn to whip us, an axis of evil, but N. Korea is? What difference is the threat?
Taiwan is going to vote on this someday in the not so distant future. Bush had better stand for our friends that love freedom or we will become weaker as a nation.
To: tallhappy
I was reading ex-President Lee Teng Hui's op-ed in the Taipei Times the other day. Even he, the man who loves democracy, characterized Taiwan's legislature as "legislative chaos." Well, didn't Pres. Lee know that legislative chaos is usually what developing countries end up with after adopting democracy? How could he praise democracy all day long before but, once Taiwan adopts democracy and its attendant legislative chaos, bemoan that same democracy all day long? If he doesn't like legislative chaos, maybe he should never have made Taiwan democratic in the first place with all those bothersome opposition parties that he now finds so annoying!
Taiwan's future is in serious doubt when even the wisest of Taiwan's pro-independence thinkers like ex-Pres Lee cannot come up with any real solution to Taiwan's continued capital flight and hollowing out of its economy. This is the problem with most pro-independence thinkers. Instead of adapting to new economic realities, you're inflexible. In the meantime, billions of dollars continue to flow out of Taiwan. Should Taiwan actually reject direct links, it will be send such a negative message to the investment community worldwide that you'll see Taiwanese and foreign investors giving up on Taiwan altogether and once and for all and pouring even more money into the mainland.
To: tallhappy
This is the original claim and response" tallhappy said:
>>People in Bush's own administration for example.
>>People from Bush1's administration, for example.
BillCompton said:
Who? Who supports recognition of Taiwan? This is just not true. I understand your point of "argument from authority", but anyone who wants to recognize Taiwan, short of very provocative Chinese aggression somewhere, just doesn't understand the Chinese. This is right up there with bombing Mecca. Just not a good idea.
You have not named a single person in the current administration, yet above you claim that "people" (plural) support it. You did a google search on recognition and found an editorial from Taiwan from a low level guy in the H.W.'s administration who supported in 2000. Instead of using the future conditional pluperfect subjective, the challenge to you was in the present tense. "Who supports recognition of Taiwan?
That editorial was from Clinton's adminstration, who was appeasing the PRC with regularity. It was a different time. Since then, relations under the new administration have become tense. We are on the brink of a war. And you come dancing down the isle acting like you know what you are talking about, when you are really just intersted in playing "gotcha" and wasting time. Well you found exactly one person who used to favor recognition. The other article "Taiwan is a State, Get Over It." sounds like it would support your position and it was in the Wall Street Journal, which would be impressive. The only problem is that the article does NOT call for the U.S. recognize Taiwan. It specifically calls on the U.S. to negotiate it with the PRC.
You, Sir or Madam, are a Troll. You mistake information for knowledge. What makes it worse is that you are arrogant about it. I make no claim of having an in depth knowledge of the subject matter. But then again I don't prance arrogantly around either. Subject closed for moi.
To: formosaplastics
Hey Mr Wang. You are as old and senile as your namesake.
Your weird insecurities are strange Why are all you ChiComs so insecure and scared?
You Chinese Communists are scared of freedom and liberty and ultimately scared of humanity itself.
Why do you go around propagandizing for the Chinese communists ? Do they pay you? Is it some sort of twisted loyalty to the party?
How much preplanning goes in. At least three or four of you signed up here on the day of this summit to spew forth your propaganda. Is this cordinated at all?
Is under the auspices of Xinhua or another group you work?
You really are missing out. You'll never understand what is is to be free and live free -- and know what that means to ally with and support fellow free people.
You know what I'm talking about.
To: BillCompton
Hi Bill,
I think everyone but you would know John Bolton is the current Undersecretary of State for Arms Control.
To: tallhappy
I stand corrected.
To: BillCompton
Well done. Perhaps, we can actually discuss thing in an informed manner. The observation I make about what can be called the AEI view vs the Associates view is a key issue.
The issue of Taiwan independence is a given. The question is how best to wean the ChiComs from their rhetorical intransigence. This would involve face saving more than anything else.
To: tallhappy
It's always amusing to listen to your lame tirades. I swear you have psychological problems.
To: tallhappy
Is under the auspices of Xinhua or another group you work?You really are missing out. You'll never understand what is is to be free and live free -- and know what that means to ally with and support fellow free people.
You spend all day with your head up your ass for the past 10 years straight talking independence, you've lost touch with reality and basic common sense. Taiwan's "freedom" is a function of Taiwan's export-based wealth, most of which is leaving Taiwan for the mainland now. So you can stick to your "freedom" all day long, but the world does change and you adjust to new economic realities or you die ignorant, which is exactly where you're headed. Believe it or not, dopey, Taiwan is not the USA. Taiwan gets 50% of its GDP from exports alone. So when exporters migrate to the mainland, Taiwan's screwed. The world changes. Get used to it.
To: formosaplastics
Angry I see.
Your weakness is showing.
Now, back to the questions about your work group and the like.
Are you paid? How much? Who develops the talking points?
To: tallhappy
Only a warped, tunnel-vision mind would conclude that anyone who is pro-China must necessarily have been paid off by China's government. I suppose you think the 67% of US House Republicans who all voted for China MFN the last time around all got paid off, too. You are too blind to recognize that China's economy is growing, and it's merely a matter of basic common sense to adjust to this new economic reality. To you, you think that anyone who recognizes China's growth and supports it somehow got "paid off." You are a fool who not only has no common sense but is out of touch with reality completely.
To: tallhappy
As long as you remain patently stupid, insulting you is unavoidable.
To: formosaplastics
Don't be coy.
You guys are rather obvious. Next time choose Elmer Fung as your name or some other dead giveaway.
Why are you so dishonest?
To: Askel5
BTTT
To: Uncle Bill
bttt
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