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Bush says does not support independence for Taiwan -(Bush Shafts Taiwan, mine)
Reuters ^ | 10-26-02

Posted on 10/26/2002 12:37:58 AM PDT by tallhappy

CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush said on Friday the United States would use its influence to ensure China and Taiwan settle their differences peacefully and promised to make it clear to Taipei that Washington does not support independence.

In a news conference with Chinese President Jiang Zemin, Bush said the United States stood by the "one China" policy, which acknowledges that Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China.

"The 'one China' policy means that the issue ought to be resolved peacefully," Bush said.

"We've got influence with some in the region. We intend to make sure that the issue is resolved peacefully, and that includes making it clear that we do not support independence," Bush added.

Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, has voiced support for a referendum on formal independence from China.

The move outraged Beijing, which views the island as a renegade province and a linchpin in Sino-U.S. relations.

Beijing had hoped Bush would repeat a pledge not to back independence for Taiwan, which China says must eventually be reunified with the mainland, by force if necessary.

Nationalists headed by Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan in 1949 after losing a civil war to Mao Zedong's communists. Washington shifted diplomatic recognition to Beijing in 1979.

But the United States has offered Taiwan the biggest arms package in a decade and Bush has pledged to do "whatever it takes" to help the democratically governed island protect itself.

Bush did not repeat that pledge at Friday's news conference.

But during a visit to China earlier this year, he said, "When my country makes an agreement, we stick with it, and there is (something) called the Taiwan Relations Act and I honour that act, which says we will help Taiwan defend herself if provoked."

China says it is seriously concerned about the U.S. warming to Taiwan under Bush and has called on Washington to halt military contacts and arms sales to the island.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: bush; china; taiwan
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Title is from source.

Title reflects content of the breaking news story.

My subtitle reflects my opinion.

Very bad decision on the President's part.

I have been a huge supporter of his. I now lose a fair amount of respect for him and also confidience in his character and ability to withstand pressure and not act and speak things against his own principles.

Regardless, this will hurt President Bush in the long run. He simply undermines himself by going against his own principles and the Bush doctrine that has been developing.

Say it ain't so, Joe...

1 posted on 10/26/2002 12:37:58 AM PDT by tallhappy
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To: tallhappy
Tallhappy, I've sided with your opinion on this for a long time. I still do, but in recent years I have been dismayed to watch the Taiwanese themselves speak favorably of the one nation two systems theory. Frankly I think that's suicidal, but it's their country.

I don't think they all feel that way, so I'm still in support of a separate sovereign Taiwan. But if I hear much more, I'm going to withdraw my support of a separate Taiwan myself.

Compounding the problem, corporate business abandonment of Taiwan for the the mainland is briske. Taiwan's business climate is suffering from what I've been led to believe.

I think Bush is wrong here. I oppose his views on this. But I think that's the way it's headed. And I think Taiwan will be the ones to undercut our support of them. Course on the other hand, they may see us selling them out and realize it's futal. I just don't know.

2 posted on 10/26/2002 12:45:57 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: tallhappy
Very bad decision on the President's part.

Where have you been? This was decided more than thirty years ago. We havent recognized Taiwan for decades. The US has had a one China policy since Nixon in the 70's. Our policy is that there is one China and that Taiwan is part of it. That is why Red China is on the Security Council and Taiwan is not even in the UN. In fact, only a handful of countries recognize Taiwan and we are NOT one of them. We oppose forced reunification but we also oppose independence for Taiwan

3 posted on 10/26/2002 12:47:20 AM PDT by Dave S
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To: tallhappy
I share the displeasure with the weak kneed stance.

However, He can say what he wishes more or less as long as he arms them adequately. . . . sounds like he's light years beyond traitor DILLDO and SHRILLERY.

Actually, from the Chinese position--what he said and didn't say would be a tough stance to their sensibilities. They will not go away happy about that. They must have pressured him pretty heavily to back out on giving or selling arms to Taiwan. And he didn't flinch on that one. That's more than most of our recent Presidents have done.

Personally, I think it's foolish for the Taiwanese to hold a referendum given the hyper paranoia and pride of Beijing. A leadership who doesn't flinch at killing their own sons and daughters and grand children in Tienanmen wouldn't flinch over neutron bombing the whole of Taiwan.

Taiwanese think Beijing wouldn't attack because Beijing would want all Taiwan's wealth in tact. Not so. Beijing would totally destroy Taiwan just out of pride. 21,000,000 souls mean little to Beijing compared to their pride, arrogance and greed for power and status.

Retaking Taiwan is a kind of leadership gold ring to capture and justification for a lot of bluster and posturing. But once they bluster and posture--they are very pride bound to back it up. I don't think Taiwan appreciates those facts sufficiently.
4 posted on 10/26/2002 12:49:18 AM PDT by Quix
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To: tallhappy
One hundred years from now, there will be a free China and there will be a free Taiwan. Bush did not change a thing and woe on the Commies if the attack Taiwan. Unless they used nukes, they can`t conquer the island. No way, no how.
5 posted on 10/26/2002 12:52:08 AM PDT by bybybill
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To: Quix
IF this is true...then that is VERY sad and I am disappointed in President Bush....say it isn't so
6 posted on 10/26/2002 12:52:28 AM PDT by Lucas1
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To: tallhappy
We've got influence with some in the region. We intend to make sure that the issue is resolved peacefully, and that includes making it clear that we do not support independence," Bush added.

Very sad :(

7 posted on 10/26/2002 12:55:01 AM PDT by Lucas1
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To: tallhappy

i rember a prediction by sean David Morton on the Bell show claiming that Bush would sell out to the Chinese worse than Clnton ever managed to.I don't claim to know the future but it looks like Bush may try to make that prediction come true.But then what are allies for if not to sell out to people who want to destroy eveything the US stands for to gain some short term good will.
8 posted on 10/26/2002 12:58:20 AM PDT by rednekelmo
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To: tallhappy
There is nothing new in GWB's position on this matter, he has always said that he agreed with the "One China" policy but that China a Taiwan should work out their differences peacefully. To me this is the usual Reuters spin.

When ever a foriegn leader visits this country, Reuters and AP do their best to undermine this administration, all the while supporting every cowardly position Bill Clinton ever announced. This is pure garbage coming from the leftist over at Reuters.

9 posted on 10/26/2002 1:03:44 AM PDT by MJY1288
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To: tallhappy
I am disappointed that you did not understand this is the status quo. Good or bad, this is our stated policy, but it does not affect our behavior. It is just a bunch of diplomatic BS.
10 posted on 10/26/2002 2:48:17 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: bybybill
Unless they used nukes, they can`t conquer the island. No way, no how.I don't really have a dog in this fight, meaning I really haven't an informed opinion on the one China policy, but I would be willing to wager that if China wanted Taiwan, they could have it intact within 72-96 hours.Too much time has passed, and China has made sure enough of "it's kind" have infiltrated, and Taiwan will fall from within. JMO...Blackbird.
11 posted on 10/26/2002 2:50:30 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: rednekelmo; tallhappy
i rember a prediction by sean David Morton on the Bell show claiming that Bush would sell out to the Chinese worse than Clnton ever managed to

The business community in this country has been after the "massive" China market for nearly 200 years, along with the super cheap Chinese labor force. The self-determination and liberty of 22 million on Taiwan mean absolutely nothing to them in comparison. Corporate interests trumps liberty for the Taiwanese in this situation. Our trade deficit is going to pay for the invasion.

12 posted on 10/26/2002 3:20:10 AM PDT by SR71A
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To: Dave S
This was decided more than thirty years ago. We havent recognized Taiwan for decades. The US has had a one China policy since Nixon in the 70's

That doesn't mean we have to continue a very bad policy. Smart people correct their mistakes.

Bush is looking more and more like an opportunist instead of a man of principle. It shouldn't surprise me, though. He won't even protect our own borders.

13 posted on 10/26/2002 3:20:39 AM PDT by Lion's Cub
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To: BlackbirdSST
This is not a "sell-out" by Bush! Nixon. One China. Ford. One China. Carter. One Chine. Reagan. One China. Bush. One China. Bubba. One China. Bush. One China. Do you dim wits see a pattern here? What Bush did do as one of his first International pronouncements is that he would defend Taiwan. He later "clarified" it to be more diplomatic, but the message was clear to China. What other evidence do you people have that he has "sold-out"? Where did he say he would not defend Taiwan from China?
14 posted on 10/26/2002 3:20:49 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: Lion's Cub
That doesn't mean we have to continue a very bad policy. Smart people correct their mistakes.

Can you name any responsible people in any position of power who supports your position? It would likely precipitate a war with a nuclear power. Brilliant. Do you realize that Taiwan itself has not declared its independance from China? "Smart people" hopefully do a little more homework before they make decisions.
15 posted on 10/26/2002 3:25:00 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: tallhappy
Why doesn't Bush call for free elections in China? Every time he discusses China, he should call for free elections.
16 posted on 10/26/2002 3:27:25 AM PDT by Edmund Burke
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To: BillCompton
So now we cower beneath anyone with a nuclear weapon, huh? Don't grovel on my behalf.
17 posted on 10/26/2002 3:31:06 AM PDT by Lion's Cub
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To: SR71A
The business community in this country has been after the "massive" China market for nearly 200 years, along with the super cheap Chinese labor force. The self-determination and liberty of 22 million on Taiwan mean absolutely nothing to them in comparison. Corporate interests trumps liberty for the Taiwanese in this situation. Our trade deficit is going to pay for the invasion.

This is a false argument. The U.S. can and does have access to both markets. And as for our willingness to throw Taiwan to the tigers, Taiwan represents the single most productive (economically) place on earth. I just don't understand the cynicism. Yes China wants to Re-unify. They have never had any other position. They also have not acted militarily to take back Taiwan, probably because they didn't have the capacity, but maybe because they are patient enough accomplish it politically like they did with Hong Kong. The American policy is the correct one.
18 posted on 10/26/2002 3:33:38 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: Quix
China's lust for Taiwan has nothing to do with pride and everything to do with strategic control of the Western Pacific Ocean.
19 posted on 10/26/2002 3:34:55 AM PDT by ffrancone
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To: SR71A
Come to think of it, I haven't seen as many "Made in Taiwan" articles on the store shelves as in years gone by.

As to their fate, does Taiwan have any oil?
20 posted on 10/26/2002 3:40:56 AM PDT by karlamayne
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To: tallhappy; DoughtyOne
Tallhappy:

In the early seventies, the President of the United States signed an agreement with China stating that Taiwan and China were part of the same country. In return, the opening of China gave us an enormous strategic advantage over the then Soviet Union. This happened at a time of great weakness of the United Sates. Our economy was in shambles. Pacifists controlled the United States house and senate and were dismantling the CIA and our national defense.

Nixon's move to ally with China probably had a lot to do with containment working thru the dismal 70's until we got a real president and a real foreign policy.

As much as I would like to see Taiwan a separate country, do you really want our current president to say that the commitments of the United States are meaningless? Especially when we benefitted so richly from those committments?

W is doing as much as he can to help Taiwan, given the binding agreements of previous American presidents. Believe me, China is not happy with this President.

21 posted on 10/26/2002 3:42:11 AM PDT by ffrancone
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To: Lion's Cub
So now we cower beneath anyone with a nuclear weapon, huh? Don't grovel on my behalf.

Cower? Well, actually, yeah. Grovel, no. You have a right to be brave with your life. You do not have a right to be brave with my family's life.

If you and your son were out hunting and a man meets you in the woods carrying a gun and tells you to get off his land, do you walk up and slap the guy just because you know the police will come and punish him if he kills you both?

Recognizing Taiwan would be a slap in the face. Now maybe they wouldn't shoot, but why find out?
22 posted on 10/26/2002 3:48:10 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: BillCompton
BillCompton said.This is not a "sell-out" by Bush! Nixon. One China. Ford. One China. Carter. One Chine. Reagan. One China. Bush. One China. Bubba. One China. Bush. One China. Do you dim wits see a pattern here? What Bush did do as one of his first International pronouncements is that he would defend Taiwan. He later "clarified" it to be more diplomatic, but the message was clear to China. What other evidence do you people have that he has "sold-out"? Where did he say he would not defend Taiwan from China?

And since BillCompton didn't bother to read my post the first time around, Blackbird said:I don't really have a dog in this fight, meaning I really haven't an informed opinion on the one China policy, but I would be willing to wager that if China wanted Taiwan, they could have it intact within 72-96 hours.Too much time has passed, and China has made sure enough of "it's kind" have infiltrated, and Taiwan will fall from within. JMO...Blackbird.

Bill, I clearly stated I have an un-informed opinion. No dog in this fight. I didn't challenge W's policy, nor do I refer to anyone as "dimwit". I simply state that if China decides it want's Taiwan, Taiwan will crumble from within, and guess what dimwit, there isn't a damn thing you or W can do to stop it. Does this not match a "One China Policy"? It'll be over before CNN can setup a camera crew. Direct your diatribe somewhere else. Blackbird.
23 posted on 10/26/2002 3:50:03 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: tallhappy
Goodbye Taiwan, hello Formosa.
24 posted on 10/26/2002 3:52:15 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: tallhappy
I'm confused- but then the whole "one China" policy has always confused me.

Are we going to defend Taiwan or are we going to let them become communist?

25 posted on 10/26/2002 3:56:51 AM PDT by LinnieBeth
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To: ffrancone
As much as I would like to see Taiwan a separate country, do you really want our current president to say that the commitments of the United States are meaningless? Especially when we benefitted so richly from those committments?

I agree completely. You know it seems that a lot of "armchair diplomats" confuse the power to do something with the wisdom of doing something. China is an emerging super-power. Their economy is second largest in the world, roughly half of our economy. Within 15 to 20 years, they will have a larger economy than ours. They are not, at least have not been, imperialistic and we don't want them to be. Yes we should make it clear that we would provide help for Taiwan if China should try to invade. When it gets to the point where China does have the military capacity to invade Taiwan, there will be a political solution. Power works that way.
26 posted on 10/26/2002 3:59:06 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: tallhappy
Of course we support "One China". Do you have any idea how many billions of dollars of American money are running around that country chasing a standard of living that is ever improving? Do you recall that GWB's dad was ambassador to China? Do you understand that in the coming economic war Taiwan won't make a tinker's dam in the bigger scheme of things? We are capitalists first.
27 posted on 10/26/2002 4:02:36 AM PDT by Glenn
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To: tallhappy
In a news conference with Chinese President Jiang Zemin, Bush said the United States stood by the "one China" policy, which acknowledges that Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China.

----------------------------------

How I wish Bush would have stayed in Texas.

28 posted on 10/26/2002 4:04:18 AM PDT by RLK
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To: BlackbirdSST
Hi Blackbird, I guess I responded to your post by accident. I meant to take no issue with your post.

I simply state that if China decides it want's Taiwan, Taiwan will crumble from within, and guess what dimwit, there isn't a damn thing you or W can do to stop it.

Man I love talk like that! I might suggest that you throw in a couple "sports", they work well too. Like "Listen, sport, if you had read my..."
29 posted on 10/26/2002 4:06:08 AM PDT by BillCompton
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To: tallhappy
What Bush says, and what he does when the chips go down in defense of Taiwan, are two different things.

Those who cannot read between the lines in Beijing will suffer the consequences of any moves against Taiwan.


BUMP

30 posted on 10/26/2002 4:13:59 AM PDT by tm22721
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To: rednekelmo
prediction by sean David Morton on the Bell show

Now isnt that our gold standard of proof. Did you check it with Dr. Doom?

31 posted on 10/26/2002 4:17:18 AM PDT by Dave S
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To: BillCompton
Like water under a bridge, "sport"!!! Blackbird.
32 posted on 10/26/2002 4:18:32 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: LinnieBeth
Are we going to defend Taiwan or are we going to let them become communist?

-------------------------

We won't even defend California against invasion by Mexico.

33 posted on 10/26/2002 4:21:09 AM PDT by RLK
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To: tallhappy
The challenge comes because two of Eurasia’s greatest powers – China and Russia – are powers in transition. And it is difficult to know their intentions when they do not know their own futures. If they become America’s friends, that friendship will steady the world. But if not, the peace we seek may not be found.

China, in particular, has taken different shapes in different eyes at different times. An empire to be divided. A door to be opened. A model of collective conformity. A diplomatic card to be played. One year, it is said to be run by "the butchers of Beijing." A few years later, the same administration pronounces it a "strategic partner."

We must see China clearly -- not through the filters of posturing and partisanship. China is rising, and that is inevitable. Here, our interests are plain: We welcome a free and prosperous China. We predict no conflict. We intend no threat. And there are areas where we must try to cooperate: preventing the spread of weapons of mass destruction… attaining peace on the Korean peninsula.

Yet the conduct of China’s government can be alarming abroad, and appalling at home. Beijing has been investing its growing wealth in strategic nuclear weapons... new ballistic missiles… a blue-water navy and a long-range airforce. It is an espionage threat to our country. Meanwhile, the State Department has reported that "all public dissent against the party and government [has been] effectively silenced" – a tragic achievement in a nation of 1.2 billion people. China’s government is an enemy of religious freedom and a sponsor of forced abortion – policies without reason and without mercy.

All of these facts must be squarely faced. China is a competitor, not a strategic partner. We must deal with China without ill-will – but without illusions.

By the same token, that regime must have no illusions about American power and purpose. As Dean Rusk observed during the Cold War, "It is not healthy for a regime ... to incur, by their lawlessness and aggressive conduct, the implacable opposition of the American people."

We must show American power and purpose in strong support for our Asian friends and allies – for democratic South Korea across the Yellow Sea... for democratic Japan and the Philippines across the China seas ... for democratic Australia and Thailand. This means keeping our pledge to deter aggression against the Republic of Korea, and strengthening security ties with Japan. This means expanding theater missile defenses among our allies.

And this means honoring our promises to the people of Taiwan. We do not deny there is one China. But we deny the right of Beijing to impose their rule on a free people. As I’ve said before, we will help Taiwan to defend itself.

The greatest threats to peace come when democratic forces are weak and disunited. Right now, America has many important bilateral alliances in Asia. We should work toward a day when the fellowship of free Pacific nations is as strong and united as our Atlantic Partnership. If I am president, China will find itself respected as a great power, but in a region of strong democratic alliances. It will be unthreatened, but not unchecked.

China will find in America a confident and willing trade partner. And with trade comes our standing invitation into the world of economic freedom. China’s entry into the World Trade Organization is welcome, and this should open the door for Taiwan as well. But given China’s poor record in honoring agreements, it will take a strong administration to hold them to their word.

If I am president, China will know that America’s values are always part of America’s agenda. Our advocacy of human freedom is not a formality of diplomacy, it is a fundamental commitment of our country. It is the source of our confidence that communism, in every form, has seen its day.

And I view free trade as an important ally in what Ronald Reagan called "a forward strategy for freedom." The case for trade is not just monetary, but moral. Economic freedom creates habits of liberty. And habits of liberty create expectations of democracy. There are no guarantees, but there are good examples, from Chile to Taiwan. Trade freely with China, and time is on our side.

Governor George W. Bush - 'A Distinctly American Internationalism'

Nov, 1999

He said nothing new yesterday.
34 posted on 10/26/2002 4:31:12 AM PDT by KDD
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To: tallhappy
Anything the President does is bad in your view. I suppose we should not allow them to try to work on a settlement? What would you do if you were President?
35 posted on 10/26/2002 4:34:42 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: tm22721
What Bush says, and what he does when the chips go down in defense of Taiwan, are two different things

On what do you base that? The way he apologized to Zemin when they took the EP3 and the crew hostage? Perhaps it's the way he vowed to fight terrorism but won't even take the basic step of protecting the borders? Or maybe it's the way he said he would pre-emptively attack Iraq and then is on the verge of agreeing to a senseless UN resolution which would delay the attack by a minimum of 75 days? Or maybe it's the way he is now insisting on recognizing a palestinian state by 2003? This president seems to have a different policy for every audience he speaks to. Who the hell knows what his real plans are anymore? They seem to change with the wind.

36 posted on 10/26/2002 4:34:44 AM PDT by Lion's Cub
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To: Dave S
Well, it can be decided 30 years ago, but if GW doesn't do something about it now, he is obviously to blame.

The problem here is not what he does or does not do. The problem here is some people are just plain ol' anti-Bush, period.

BTW, why hasn't Bush provided me reparations for my ancestors 3000+ years ago when we were slaves in Egypt? Bush sucks.

37 posted on 10/26/2002 4:37:16 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: KDD; Dave S
BTW, if you'll notice, it's another hit and run post. But thank you for replying to the original, I enjoyed what you wrote.
38 posted on 10/26/2002 4:39:07 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: tallhappy
I saw this coming when the "Compassionate One" decided to be neutral on China's Summer Olympics bid, which indeed was awarded to Beijing several months ago. How can Bush, with a straight face, bash Cuba's Castro on one day and ignore China's voluminous human rights violations the next?

If it was Taiwan with veto power in the United Nations on the Iraq vote, I have a feeling Dubya would be kissing up to them instead of the commie baby-killers in Beijing.
39 posted on 10/26/2002 4:44:15 AM PDT by billclintonwillrotinhell
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To: Always Right
You nailed it....same diplo-speak the last several presidents have issued.
40 posted on 10/26/2002 4:54:27 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: tallhappy
Bush needs China's support on the Iraq resolution.

I support a one China policy myself: Reunification after the fall of Chinese Communism.

41 posted on 10/26/2002 4:56:44 AM PDT by Thane_Banquo
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To: tallhappy
Interview with Chinese Dissident Harry Wu -- excerpt:
J.R. Nyquist:  How would you characterize the ruling Communist Party in China. I mean, what sort of people are they?

Harry Wu:  Butchers.


42 posted on 10/26/2002 5:09:06 AM PDT by 2sheep
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To: BillCompton; Jeff Head
They also have not acted militarily to take back Taiwan, probably because they didn't have the capacity, but maybe because they are patient enough accomplish it politically like they did with Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is not a very good "political" example. The return of Hong Kong had to do with a lease expiration and nothing to do with political solutions, as is happening now.
Their economy is second largest in the world, roughly half of our economy. Within 15 to 20 years, they will have a larger economy than ours.
Speculation on your part?
And from a "war making" aspect where production is key...Why Is China Growing So Fast?
The most interesting part...China's recent productivity performance is remarkable. By comparison, productivity growth for the Asian tigers hovered around 2 percent, sometimes slightly more, for the 1966-91 period. China's rate of almost 4 percent simply puts it in a class by itself.
I notice you used the "tiger" metaphor yourself earlier in the thread.
When it gets to the point where China does have the military capacity to invade Taiwan, there will be a political solution.
China's Military Keeps on Modernizing
War over Taiwan is not viewed by Beijing as imminent. Given the desire of both the Taiwan government and the United States not to provoke Beijing into military action, the initiative lies with China. Its leaders believe that the sustained rapid growth of the economy is working in their favor.
Almost all the new conventional weapons needed to overcome China's military backwardness have to be imported at high cost. Imported weapons make China dependent on suppliers, primarily Russia, for spare parts and follow-on models. Although a large part of the military budget is earmarked for current expenses, at these levels substantial funds are available for imports. Suppliers stand ready to sell modern weapons and technology - first of all Russia, but also Israel, France, Britain, Germany and South Africa. The equipment of China's armed forces can be expected to improve much more in the coming years than in the recent past.

Yep, history repeating itself. Pump up the economy and in a few years your enemy is powerful enough and wealthy enough to strike out. I wonder...will the "political solution" be Chamberlainian in manner?
Jeff, you might have some more insights.

43 posted on 10/26/2002 5:27:09 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: tallhappy
Thanks: There were some interesting observations and I feel more informed about the one China Policy. For the most part a very intelligent thread.
44 posted on 10/26/2002 5:27:32 AM PDT by cynicalman
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To: SR71A
The self-determination and liberty of 22 million on Taiwan mean absolutely nothing to them in comparison.

The Taiwanese do not want self determination and liberty separate from China. They see themselves as a Chinese government in exile. I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state. I haven't studied this, but I believe this is the case.

45 posted on 10/26/2002 5:29:50 AM PDT by TN4Liberty
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To: KDD
And habits of liberty create expectations of democracy.
This makes him a democrat, an adherent of democracy.
Where is constitutional, representative government? Where is the republicanism of this Republican?
You do the man no favors and I probably further ostracize myself.
46 posted on 10/26/2002 5:35:52 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: tallhappy
Taiwan must stay independent, and it's our job to see that it does.
47 posted on 10/26/2002 5:41:13 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government
If Bush can't support Taiwan independence, then elect a democrat that can.
48 posted on 10/26/2002 5:41:52 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: TN4Liberty
The Taiwanese do not want self determination and liberty separate from China. They see themselves as a Chinese government in exile. I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state. I haven't studied this, but I believe this is the case.
Yes, some do want independence.
Taiwan Independence Party
Chinese Premier Warns Against "Taiwan Independence"
Snip..."But I want to make clear here that whoever comes into power in Taiwan after the election must not go about 'Taiwan independence', nor will 'Taiwan independence' in whatever form be allowed," he stressed, adding, "this is the bottom line of the Chinese government and represents the common wish of the 1.25 billion people in China."
"Our consistent principle on the settlement of the Taiwan question has been 'peaceful reunification' and 'one country, two systems', but we do not promise giving up the use of force to resolve the Taiwan issue," the premier said.
"We will support whoever upholds the 'one China' principle, and we can hold negotiations with him on any question and are ready to make concessions on our part," he said.
"Whoever goes about 'Taiwan independence' is doomed," he said. "Because such a proposition runs against the wishes of the Chinese people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, and runs against the wishes of overseas Chinese and people of Chinese origin all over the world."

Snip...The premier rebuffed the presumption that China dare not use force to resolve the Taiwan question. "Some people are calculating how many aircraft, missiles and warships China possesses, and have concluded that China dare not and will not use force (to resolve the Taiwan issue)," he said. "According to such kind of calculation, Hitler would long have ruled the whole world."
"People making such calculations don't know about the Chinese history. The Chinese people are ready to shed blood and sacrifice their lives to defend the unity of their motherland and the dignity of the Chinese nation," Zhu stressed.

49 posted on 10/26/2002 5:43:54 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: TN4Liberty
I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state.

From the above article:

Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, has voiced support for a referendum on formal independence from China.

This seems to contradict your belief about Taiwanese wishes for Independence.

Let's have that referendum, and see what the Taiwanese think. Do people have a right to self-determination or not?

50 posted on 10/26/2002 5:46:17 AM PDT by SR71A
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