Posted on 10/26/2002 10:38:54 PM PDT by yonif
Ideologically, we mix with Israel because it is right. There is a little thing called right and wrong. Democracy, freedom, modernity = good. Dictatorship, theocracy, terrorism, primitive feudalism = bad.
Pretty simple eh?
Additionally, like it was already mentioned, we get plenty of technology (scientific, military, hi-tech) through our partnership with Israel. We get bases and logistic support if neccissary. We also get a guaranteed ally that will actually FIGHT with us. Can you say that about the Arab states?
Finally, on a purely strategic level, it is not good to be against Israel, since Israel has guaranteed (through 300+ nukes) that it can NEVER LOSE ALONE. With Israel we might (probably will) be on the winning side, against Israel we will definately be on the losing side. Simple math.
Don't put so much stock in the oil talk. We have plenty of oil if we chose to drill it. It is Europe that needs to be worried. Plus, in the end this Arab oil monarchs depend more on us then we do on them. After all, without our oil purchasing power, their one item economies will collapse.
And one of the first ideologies was articulated to us by George Washington as a one of his parting gifts: BEWARE OF FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS. Why should we become entangled with Israel? Is there any compelling reason? Are there reasons compelling enough for us to risk the emnity of a billion and a half people, suffer from potential oil shortfalls, and risk nuclear mass murder in one or more of our cities?Lets examine the reasons you put forth:
Ideologically, we mix with Israel because it is right. There is a little thing called right and wrong. Democracy, freedom, modernity = good. Dictatorship, theocracy, terrorism, primitive feudalism = bad.
This is your best argument but it falls short. For the most part Israel fits your description but foreign policy decisions to entangle ourselves have rarely been finally determined on a good guy vs. bad guy basis but on a national interest basis. I have been to Israel in the middle seventies and was taken aback to see that the entire West Bank was really nothing but an occupied land with an Isreli soldier with a gun on every corner. Yes the Arabs were backward, superstitious and tribal but they were OCCUPIED. You say that terrorism and theocracy are bad, and they are, but Israel is free neither of strains of theocracy or of terrorism in its founding. Menachem Began was by most definitions a terrorist. The picture is too muddy to entangle my country in your moral vision when the morality is not so clear and the potential consquences so terrible.
Pretty simple eh?
No, it isn't simple and it isn't clear.
Additionally, like it was already mentioned, we get plenty of technology (scientific, military, hi-tech) through our partnership with Israel. We get bases and logistic support if neccissary. We also get a guaranteed ally that will actually FIGHT with us. Can you say that about the Arab
Where to begin? We don't get PLEANTY of scientific, military or hi-tech technology from Israel. We get a little most of which we subsidize or finance and of which virtually all could be produced at home or from other foreign sources which don't carry such an omnious price tag. What bases do we get? Logistical support?-Please. A guaranteed ally who will fight with us? Where? In a war which occurs because they are our ally? The last thing we want in a real war in the Mid East is Israel actually fighting on our side. We would lose all the bases which we actually get from "friendly" Arab countries. The Gulf War demonstrates this truism. The Gulf war also demonstrates that Arab states have actually fought on our side. Israel is no "guaranteed" ally but remains an ally only so long as it is consistent with its perceived national interest. A test we should apply to our entanglement with Israel against hundreds of millions of Arabs with the world's best oil. You speak of a "partnership" with Israel. Why? For what? Where is our pay day out of this "partnership"?
Finally, on a purely strategic level, it is not good to be against Israel, since Israel has guaranteed (through 300+ nukes) that it can NEVER LOSE ALONE. With Israel we might (probably will) be on the winning side, against Israel we will definately be on the losing side. Simple math.
Our "partnership" with Israel makes it more likely that we will be the victim of a nuclear bomb. The idea that we must entangle ourselves with Israel because they have a number of nukes did not persuade us vis a vis the Soviet Union. Lets face it, we enabled Israel to get those nukes. What a circular argument: They are our ally so covertly give them the nukes; They have nukes so we must keep them as our ally. If Israel is on the "winning side" because it uses nukes there will be no winning side at least not for Israel, her enemies or her allies. Unaligned bystanders have a half a chance.
Don't put so much stock in the oil talk. We have plenty of oil if we chose to drill it. It is Europe that needs to be worried. Plus, in the end this Arab oil monarchs depend more on us then we do on them. After all, without our oil purchasing power, their one item economies will collapse.
Without oil, western economies collapse. With a marginal shortage of oil, western economies are ravaged. We cannot drill half the oil we need. Why are we exposing ourselves to this for Israel's sake?
Sorry I can't seem to get the italics off
Stay away from Israel threads and that won't happen.
If you can't distinguish between the moral disparity of the two sides then that says something right there about you. People who can't distinguish between suicide bombers intentionally targeting civilians, and a nation that targets terrorists with civilians occasionally caught in the middle (see what Bush said recently about who carries the blame for the Russians that died in the theater) is no better then the terrorists in my book.
People like that enable terrorism through their intentional white-wash and moral equality...cycle of violence... bull$hit.
How did we enable Israel to get nukes? Israel's abilities stand for themselves. They have produced some great technology, built a modern country, and won three hopeless wars before we started helping them. At one point they had the most IPOs on Nasdaq of any foreign country in the world.
What do we get from Israel? Where do you think most of our human int on Islamic terror comes from? What do you think would have happened to our economy if they hadn't bombed Saddam in 1982 (we condemned them for it remember) and stopped him from developing nukes before the Gulf War? He would have taken Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and what would our options have been then?
Israel, unlike the Arab's that 'faught' with us in the Gulf War, can actually fight. Fight and win. Our pilots learn a lot from them. Talk to any pilot here on FR who has flown with the Israelis and ask them what they think of the Israeli pilots. Some of the greatest military victories (statistically) of the last 50 years belong to the Israelis, including the tactics (urban combat, anti-terror, tank warefare) they developed which are studied today in our academies.
There is no doubt that to the moderate Arabs we are an ally of convenience. With Israel we have a genuine ally, which respects us also for reasons beyond convenience, like ideology and shared values. There is much to be said for that.
In the end, by supporting the ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, we encourage democracy and freedom in the entire Middle East (as a war with Iraq would do, if handled successfully afterwards). Democracy, modernity, capitalism, and freedom in the Middle East are the long term strategic interests of the United States and in the end, the only thing that will protect us from the cult of Islamic fundementalism.
Our self-hating, ultra-PC left-wing, political correctness has handcuffed us in the war against Evil, and allowed the enemy to use our own institutions and good will against us.
Our support of Islamic/Arab dictators and the way we ignored the realities (and brutalities) of their regimes, exchanging democritization and freedom for tyranny and oil, and our inability to make intelligent long term assessments of where terror was heading make us more likely to absorb a nuclear weapon.
And the more we appease, the more we surrender, the more we support the Islamic/Arab dictators, the more we 'understand' the terrorists grievences, the more we blame ourselves, the more we soften our stance and hang our real friends out to dry, the more danger we will be in.
About 8,000 miles West......
Not at all - you're welcome to put up a soapbox just like the rest of us. If you disagree with many here, you will be challenged and forced to defend your opinions - as well you should be. If your purpose is to establish a niche here that runs counter to conservative thought, then you are welcome to leave. If you are here to cause trouble, then you will be escorted to the door, and none too politely either.
FR makes no secret about being a conservative community. Last I checked, that is not a "discouragement" of freedom of speech. I think perhaps you would do well to check your definitions before you begin hurling insults and brickbats at the community at large.
When someone says they are for "civilian life", ask them if they really mean they are for "a free life". Probably most will agree. Then ask them why they are so dead set against paying the price for such freedom - for freedom is never free.
Welcome, once again, to FR.
We are located generally to the west of Isreal.
Whom was Menachen Began targeting when he blew up the King David hotel? Look, I can distinguish between terrorists and democracy but I can also remember that the Israelis were not so fastidious back when they didn't have F-16s and tanks. They behaved more like the Palistinians of today.
Nixon's last minute supply of materiel had much to do with winning that war and America's suppport has generally been unstinting but I do not denigrate Israel's martial accomplishments. Indeed it is so good they have demonstrated they can manage without us.
What do we get from Israel? Where do you think most of our human int on Islamic terror comes from? What do you think would have happened to our economy if they hadn't bombed Saddam in 1982 (we condemned them for it remember) and stopped him from developing nukes before the Gulf War? He would have taken Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and what would our options have been then?
Israel's vaunted intelligence has not helped them or us very much so far and that includes 9/11. I applaude the 1982 strike but don't for one minute believe the Israelis did it to preserve our economy - they did it in their own national interest which is why we should take Saddam out.
Israel, unlike the Arab's that 'faught' with us in the Gulf War, can actually fight. Fight and win. Our pilots learn a lot from them. Talk to any pilot here on FR who has flown with the Israelis and ask them what they think of the Israeli pilots. Some of the greatest military victories (statistically) of the last 50 years belong to the Israelis, including the tactics (urban combat, anti-terror, tank warefare) they developed which are studied today in our academies.
Let us not fight yesterday's wars with yesterday's tactics.
There is no doubt that to the moderate Arabs we are an ally of convenience. With Israel we have a genuine ally, which respects us also for reasons beyond convenience, like ideology and shared values. There is much to be said for that. In the end, by supporting the ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, we encourage democracy and freedom in the entire Middle East (as a war with Iraq would do, if handled successfully afterwards). Democracy, modernity, capitalism, and freedom in the Middle East are the long term strategic interests of the United States and in the end, the only thing that will protect us from the cult of Islamic fundementalism.
Inspiring words but there is support and there is support. The Arab Muslim world has concluded, rightly or wrongly, that we have crossed the line from support to quasi- beligerant status. Now we are paying the price for that perception. What has it availed us?
This area of the world is swarming with terrorists because just about every mideast nation supports terrorism against the West. And Arabs were attacking and oppressing their own Jewish nationals long before the formation of the state of Israel.
Now, because we support Israel to do what it would do anyway,ie place troops at risk to fight terrorists, we have become the victim of terrorist attacks and must place our toops at risk in Afganistan and, soon, in Irak to fight terrorists.
Are these questions rhetorical, or do you honestly believe that our support for Israel is the reason we were attacked last year? Israel is simply seen as an extention of "the West," not the other way around. Europe expresses no great love of Israel, is quite supportive of Arafat and the Palestinians on a usual basis, and they are targeted just the same. For example, what about the French oil tanker that got blown up a couple weeks ago? France is hardly a threat to the Middle East. Another half dozen European countries can cite internal conflicts with radical Islamists. And there are plenty of terrorists elsewhere - check out Indonesia, the Philippines, Pakistan, a few countries in Africa. Unfortunately the common factor is NOT support for Israel. The common factor is radical Islam.
The Jewish militants targeted British soldiers, and never claimed to seek the destruction of Britain itself. You see the difference?
The Jewish militants phoned into the King David to warn them before the explosion. You see the difference?
The Jewish militants never blew up any British kindergardens, discos, or pubs in London, or Palestine. You see the difference?
Of course you don't. It is all the same in your mind because you encourage Islamic terrorism through your intentional white-wash.
Btw, it is generally accepted that the war was already turning around in 1973 before the goods arrived. In fact, few of them actually saw battle.
Israel's intelligence is what it is, regardless of whether it stopped 9/11. I don't remember Israel being in charge of preventing every terror attack against America. We're supposed to get off our a$$ and do something too.
Urban combat and anti-terror tactics are tomarrows war, not yesterdays. Many of the tactics in the Gulf War were taken from Israeli experience in desert warfare.
Don't worry Nathen, one day your 'friends' will come for you, not because of your love or hate of Israel, but because you don't pray 5 times a day to Allah.
Stop. It is unfair to claim that I intentionally "whitewash" terrorism. Lets not go down that road.
Don't worry Nathen, one day your 'friends' will come for you, not because of your love or hate of Israel, but because you don't pray 5 times a day to Allah.
Don't go down this road either
FR is not a monolith. It is a forum for ideas, and there is not (nor should there be) an official position.
We see strong feelings on both sides here.
Personally, I am on Israel's side, long before the terrorism escalated.
And as for Islam? No comment. Let's keep things on a positive note.
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