Hillary Rosen (RIAA) soundly defeated in online music debate at Oxford Union

The Oxford Union ^ | 10/27/02

[Brian Mosely]

Oxford Union Debate - This House believes that "the free music mentality is a threat to the future of music."

This was a debate held at the Oxford Union on Thursday 24th October. For the speakers, see the debate page.

Final vote was:
Ayes - 72
Noes - 256

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Under the watchful eye of Dave Green from NTK, several of us met up in the Lamb & Flag before the debate, and trooped in together. Impressively, we had about as many members as non, so getting everyone in wasn't nearly as tough as we'd expected it to be. Since we arrived about 8pm, we sat through a rather confusing debate, where it seemed that neither the (very quiet) chair or the speakers quite knew which side they were arguing for... Then, about 8:40 the speakers for the main debate wandered in.

The proposition had Nick Pacheco (Christchurch College), Hilary Rosen (RIAA), Chris Wright (Chrysalis) and Jay Berman (IFPI). The opposition had Will Harris (Keble College), Nick King (Nielsen Entertainment), Doug D'Arcy (Chrysalis) and Ronnie Gurr (various). (A few union members also spoke for both sides during the floor debate.)

I won't endeavour to recount the entire debate, just some of my thoughts on it and what I thought were some of the highlights. The Union made a video recording of the entire thing, which may or may not eventually get put online (you could try asking the Union President, David Watson about it, I suspect the more requests they get the more like it is to get online). Dave Green also made a tape recording of the event, that will probably make it online soonish, provided the quality is good enough.

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So, some of the more memorable bits included:

• Hilary Rosen saying "Actually, no copy protected CDs have been released in the US" ( really? really?)
• Hilary Rosen asks "Put up your hand if you download and burn music" (most hands go up). She then asks "Keep you hand up if you buy more music because of it" (many stay up). She gets worried and immediately asks some different and confusing set of people to put their hands up, causing everyone to look miffed, and everyone putting their hand down)
• Hilary Rosen nodding like a pigeon for most of the time
• Every opposition speaker getting at least one impromptu applause during their speeches, only one proposition speaker getting one (and that was for taking the piss out of a union hack)
• The leader of the opposition appearing to have read http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/ based on many of his comments (i.e. he said many of the things that were on the leaflets we had to hand out)
• One of the proposition reading out several verses of "Thank you for the music" by Abba. We got the point after the first verse, but we then stated to wonder if he had permission from the rights holder, or was he simply claiming "fair use"?
• The proposition trying to defend the vast profits they make on many CDs sales, and trying to make themselves look philanthropic about many of the artists they take on
• The proposition keep claiming "you can't have/make music without the music industry" and then not letting anyone speak to point out the inaccuracy of this
• Everyone (yup, both sides, but more so the opposition) laying into the likes of Pop Stars, Pop Idols etc
• The quality of the examples/figures etc given by both sides. The proposition kept pulling out these massive numbers on falling sales, the opposition pointed out which areas were falling and which were growing (quite insightful, and hardly surprising).
• One of the opposition speakers telling us about his recent music shopping experiences (including how he'd been in HMV buying a couple of CDs, and the people in front of him in the queue who were buying several CDs were also talking about how to download various P2P clients).
• One of the proposition giving figures on the Linkin Park album (sales, downloads etc), the leader of the opposition saying he'd personally downloaded it and then gone out and bought it, asking for the figures of how many people who'd downloaded it had bought it, and being told "I have no figures, and nor do you" by the proposition, nicely ignoring the fact that they both then had a figure showing that 100% of people surveyed there who'd downloaded had also bought...
• Jay Berman probably being the best proposition speaker, and coming out with the insightful "Each generation has had their own music. For your generation it's filesharing. And I think thats a pretty terrible thing"
• Ronnie Gurr being good once he'd warmed up (Martin has more on him on his page)
• The votes (a massive landslide for the opposition, with 72 Ayes to 256 Noes)
• Hilary Rosen almost voting against the motion (you vote by walking out the correct door, and she wasn't paying any attention)
• Alastair's photo (the others) of Hilary Rosen talking to someone wearing a Corrupt Audio T-Shirt, and appearing to be reading it.
• Us clapping and cheering Hilary Rosen and friends as they left, and them appearing not to get the sarcasm (this being a scant 20 minutes after we were giving fliers to everyone leaving the debate
• Discovering that one of our number was a Dave Green on TV fan, while queueing up for Kebabs.

Oh, and a few other things that currently escape me. I might write them here later...

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Links of some possible relevance

• The Oxford Union
• Union page on the debate
• Martin Llloyd's page on the debate
• Alastair's photos from the debate

[Lizard_King]

Excellent post.

[Bogey78O]

I Rosen was a conservative instead of a leftist lesbian we'd be hearing her and Bush in the same breath. No one wants to mention her and Hillary in the same breath though.

[bvw]

Good for freedom!

[Banjoguy]

Illogical premise, QED:reducto absurdum.
Are you against crime?
Do you support good health?
Are you against taxes?
Are you against crooked politicians?
Are you against poverty?
Do you think art ought to be free?
Would you like all lunches to be free?
ARE YOU A SOCIALIST?
Are you against capitalism?