"Brother of Jesus" bone-box plot thickens [Israeli Scholars: Jesus' 'Brother' Box Fraud]

Israel Insider ^ | November 5, 2002 | Ellis Shuman

[Mr. Lucky]

Aren't you reling pretty heavily upon 21st Century English nuance to interpret passages that weren't written in English?

[xzins]

No one's arguing about their being brothers.

The question is did they have the same mother. (1) Joseph could have had a wife before Mary. (2) Joseph could have had a wife in addition to Mary. (3) Joseph could have ditched Mary and gotten another wife.

Those were all LEGAL AND POSSIBLE in that era. And the children of any of them would have TRULY been Jesus' brothers.

[TigersEye]

If there ever was a classic case of failing to see the forest through the trees......

Spoil sport.

[AmericanDave]

But it would have been normal for him to have relations with his wife after a time from Jesus's birth. And I see nothing wrong with this moraly or biblicaly; so what's the fuss?

[John Locke]

Wait a minute. This is a long and seemingly authoritative article - also a rather arrogant one - but what it's saying doesn't make sense.

Yes, the inscription is in two different hands. How does that prove it to be a hoax? The author cites no evidence that the second part was a later addition, or that it was a falsehood. In fact, she proceeds to destroy her own argument. I quote:

As with any other vow, the text must be in the hand of the one making the vow.

So suppose there were two people making a vow to the deceased? Then there would be two hands. And who might these people be? One, of course, would be a family member, who promised to remember him in the traditional Jewish way, as "James the son of Joseph". And the second, perhaps, was a religious associate of James, in other words a Christian, who promised to rememer him using the style that we are familiar with from the NT, and that may well already have been in use, namely "James, the brother of Jesus".

I'm not saying this is is the case. But it's possible - indeed, given the times, and specifically given the manner of James' death, I'd say it was plausible. But this much at least: it demonstrates that the author's abrupt conclusion that the inscription is a hoax cannot be sustained on the basis of the evidence she presents.

For my part, I continue to suspend judgement.

[LimitedPowers]

Mary's perpetual virginity is taught nowhere in Scripture. Professing "believers" from the first few centuries A.D. have taught all sorts of unbiblical doctrines.

Do you refer to the same believers who redacted the New Testament? Who copied the various books, preserved them, and -- over the course of various Church councils -- identified them explicitly and declared them a "canon"? Were they following "biblical principles" when they established the canon? Or was promulgating the New Testament the only thing these "icon worshippers" ever did right before the Lord?

There was a New Testament Church before there was a New Testament. What "biblical principles" did it follow? In fact, the Church has always had a body of teaching along side Holy Scripture, and served to interpret and to put Scripture in context (I'm sure you've have the bible quote from St. Paul memorized, right?). The Church did not die with the Evangelist John to be resurrected at the Protestant Reformation. Post #64 gives a crude rendition of what is actually the Orthodox Church teaching on the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Joseph, as a devout Jew, was bound by the Oral Law of Kiddushin. He knew that the Blessed Virgin Mary was forbidden to any man, including himself.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Psalm 110:1 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."

Deuteronomy 34:6 "And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre until this present day."

1 Maccabees 5:54 "And they went up to Mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain, till they had returned in peace."

1 Timothy 4:13 "Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine."

1 Samuel 15:35 "And Samuel saw Saul no more till the day of his death: ..."

2 Samuel 6:23 "Michal the daughter of Saul had not children until the day of her death."

Romans 8:22 "For we know that every creature groaneth abnd travaileth in pain, even till now."

Apocalypse 2:25 "Yet that, which you have, hold fast till I come."

1 Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, until he hath put all His enemies under His feet."

Even the 16th century "reformers" themselves confessed "Mariam semper virginem":

"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary." John Calvin, Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562

"It is an article of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin.... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." Martin Luther, Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pp. 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Vol. 1, page 424.

The narrow modern English definition of "until" or "till" that you choose to cling to is not equivalent to the Greek heos and that is just one reason why linguistic literalists, like yourself, get tripped up every time.

[Irisshlass]

hehe

[polemikos]

This is a long and seemingly authoritative article - also a rather arrogant one

Yep. Too arrogant and too judgemental. The charge of "fraud" is overwrought, IMO.

So suppose there were two people making a vow to the deceased? Then there would be two hands.

Two hands, but also 2 carvers, and 2 cursive styles that are separated by at least 100 years (and therein lies the rub).

second, perhaps, was a religious associate...

I tend to agree. See my post 45.

the author's abrupt conclusion that the inscription is a hoax cannot be sustained

ditto.

[Bob Z.]

Except it is not taught where it counts, the FINAL Authority:

God's Everlasting WORD

Galatians 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Are you offended by Jesus?

[Bob Z.]

I noticed somethign completely lacking. What GOD said.

Present ONE verse from the Bible which states that Mary is still a virgin, into perpetuity. Nowhere else, just in the Bible. Without that, you have nothing but the words and trasditions of men, which thing was and is rejected by Jesus Himself.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

His,
Bob Z.

[Irisshlass]

till

does not indicate change in behavior...

Romans 8
22 For we know that the whole creation (1) groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

1 Timothy 4
13 (1) Until I come, give attention to the public (2) reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

1 Timothy 6
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the (1) appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 2
25 'Nevertheless (1) what you have, hold fast (2) until I come

2 Samuel 6
23 Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

[Irisshlass]

You have to study the OT and understand Jewish Law...Joseph was forbidden all time...

[Irisshlass]

I missed your posts..:)

[donmeaker]

I don't know the greek for "till" or the tense, but I know that one of the standard tests for new testament greek is to develop alternative translations, so that the students understand the degree of ambiguity that can be in a short text. I have heard entire sermons based on the presence of a single comma. Alas, the point may be interesting but commas were not invented until much later, so the comma would represent the desires of the translator, not the ever living G-d.

[The Grammarian]

"‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23)

*CoughProoftextingCough*

[berned]

My democrat Catholic grandmother never voted Republican till the day she died.

That's amazing!! Did she die in an accident on the way home from the polls?

[american colleen]

I'd be very interested in knowing how you interpret

As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’

Seems pretty straightforward to me.