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To: tictoc
I believe that one generation brought up with religion can become atheist and remain largely moral (not knowing or crediting the source of their moral sense) but not subsequent generations.

We have a great deal in common, TicToc! I too came to think this way. I said to my daughter a few times, "It's not entirely up to you whether to attend the Temple: you yourself have become a moral and kind person and, should you abandon religion, will problably remain the same person. But your children will go further, and you will not like where they will have gone."

I enjoyed reading your posts, TicToc.

63 posted on 11/20/2002 6:34:39 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark; tictoc
Thanks, TQ. Interesting post.

Some comments: there was always great political freedom in Christianity for several reasons: the Empire and the Church were in an adversarial relationship for the first 300 years of their existence. That bred a distrust of tyranny among Christians that has had a lasting effect.

The Hebrew Scriptures contain a very strong critique of tyranny and of the potential evils of monarchy - this resonated strongly.

Christianity assumes that society will never be perfect and this creates a skepticism toward totalizing regimes. Conversely, of course, Muslims idealize the Caliphate and a seamless continuity between politics and religion.

When you say that the term "Judeo-Christian" is more a term of art than a meaningful one, I have to dissent. There is a sense in which it's just a patronizing term, true. But in the past century a vast number of Christian theologians have learned Hebrew and read the Scriptures in that language. from 400 to 1900 AD there were never more than a few dozen Christian theologians alive at any one time that knew Hebrew. That situation has been completely transformed and the mental world of the Christian theologian has been transformed with it. One example: in the Catholic Mass, when we collectively confess our sins before the Scripture readings begin, we strike our chest three times with our fists as a sign of penitence - the earliest Christian liturgies attest to this practice. This is also done by Orthodox Jews, I believe, during the Shacharis before the Shemonah Esrei.

This is a liturgical survival from the Qoheleth Gadol of Ezra. Today, as we write, hundreds of millions of Catholics all over the world repeat this act of humility before the G-d of Jacob that was performed by a tiny band of Jews who wandered out of Babylonian captivity 2,500 years ago. I am very aware of that fact as I assist at Mass. That's Judeo-Christian.

Tictoc probably knows this name, but you also might find him interesting, TQ: Carl Schmitt. He was a German political philosopher who was quite critical of the Enlightenment and wrote a small book called Politische Theologie. He points out that once the Treaty of Westphalia and the French Revolution had diminished or eliminated religious discourse from political life, politics became a religion and those who dissented from approved political ideas became heretics worthy of persecution. Enforced religious uniformity became enforced political uniformity.

65 posted on 11/21/2002 6:28:48 AM PST by wideawake
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